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  #41  
Old 06-22-2012, 03:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Antitrust32 View Post
you should be outraged that there are people like Dr. Doug in your profession. Unfortunately, he's not the only shady character in that business.
I most certainly am outraged. I grew up riding in the era and location of George and Si Jayne. Shady is familiar to me in the horse business. I've bought and sold horses my own horses. Buyer beware 100% of the time.

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I dont see where the outrage for Mitt comes from, except you dont want him to be the next President. (I dont want him to be either)
My outrage with the Mittens and Ann show over this has zero to do with Mitt's political views and job aspirations.

Mitt is the man who writes the checks, owns the land, barn, the farm business, takes it on his tax return, wife doesn't work, he's sole breadwinner, he rides his own trail horse at times, although he's not as horsey as Ann.

Owner's agent here was a disaster, colluding with the vet. That means the owner - Ann Romney, if you will - colluded to defraud.

Her name was taken off the suit in the settlement, but they forgot about the document statement from the expert witness tearing her story to shreds. So dang - Mitt is running for President, and the press still dug up this story - even though they settled out of court in exchange for removing Ann's name from the court records to try and hide the lawsuit - because the trainer got named to the Olympic team and Romney can't mix with mortals well.

This happened a couple years ago - but the Romney's still employ this trainer? This known cheater?

I cannot make any scenario whatsoever where any rational person - Mitt - could know they have a horse that could not be shown for 2 1/2 years because he is lame and done, knows he has ringbone, has paid multiple vet bills on this $125,000K horse that can't work (including insurance policies) - and suddenly the horse is sold as sound for $125,000 for a job it can no longer do?

And they don't think that's weird?

This has nothing to do with Romney's politics, but everything to do with the morals and business ethics of a man who wants to run this country. This isn't Mitt's first case of "money before living creatures".
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  #42  
Old 06-22-2012, 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Riot View Post
Who were all those folks direct employees of? Who pays their salary? Who owns the farm - the property and land - the trainer works upon and lives upon? The farm the horse lived upon?

Why did the settlement include getting Ann Romney's name off all the legal documents? Because "I'm gonna be running for President, for goodness' sake!"?

I have zero tolerance for scum that dope and sell lame horses. The owners knew the horse was useless and lame. This was an ongoing, multi-year problem. The horse was doped and sold for quite a profit. It's outrageous fraud and deceit.

But it's good to know that if Michelle Obama ever defrauds someone for $125,000, you guys won't associate it with, or blame the President
Ann Romney's name didn't "get off all the legal documents." It's right there on the first page. She was dismissed from the complaint before it was settled. Why, if the case against her is as solid as you say, did the plaintiff dismiss her? Why did she dismiss the Ebelings? Why didn't the vet have to pay? I'd really like to know. Perhaps part of the answer is in the other proceedings. If you have a link for them I'd like to read the rest of the story.
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  #43  
Old 06-22-2012, 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Coach Pants View Post
What Quiet is doing is damage control for her God. You see, her God was caught shipping guns to Mexico in order to fuel media propaganda for a gun ban. The sycophants can deflect, defend, attack all they want. Those are the indisputable facts for normal human beings who aren't in a high fructose corn syrup induced coma.

While doing this obvious damage control she abandons humanity and puts one horse above Mexicans and border patrol agents.


For shame. But that's the type of evil we're dealing with.
speaking of fast and furious...
i see the house oversight committee wants to charge holder with contempt. and that obama invoked executive privilege to withold documents and communications among D of J officials. always a comforting sign from our elected officials.

but that's not important. that pales in comparison to a horse once owned by a candidate's wife.
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  #44  
Old 06-22-2012, 03:38 PM
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speaking of fast and furious...
i see the house oversight committee wants to charge holder with contempt. and that obama invoked executive privilege to withold documents and communications among D of J officials. always a comforting sign from our elected officials.

.
Actually, Holder has already given Issa over 7,000 documents, and told Issa the committee could look at the additional specific documents they want - they just don't want copies of those documents to be released to the public. Issa refused that offer of looking.

After all, Issa swore he'd hold a hearing a day on the Obama administration from when the President was elected. Issa hasn't been able to come up with much, though.

Darryl Issa will teach the Obama administration a lesson for cancelling a Bush gun running program. Issa voted for Fast and Furious when it started under Bush.

I think the contempt vote in the House is next week.
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  #45  
Old 06-22-2012, 03:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Riot View Post
I most certainly am outraged. I grew up riding in the era and location of George and Si Jayne. Shady is familiar to me in the horse business. I've bought and sold horses my own horses. Buyer beware 100% of the time.



My outrage with the Mittens and Ann show over this has zero to do with Mitt's political views and job aspirations.

Mitt is the man who writes the checks, owns the land, barn, the farm business, takes it on his tax return, wife doesn't work, he's sole breadwinner, he rides his own trail horse at times, although he's not as horsey as Ann.

Owner's agent here was a disaster, colluding with the vet. That means the owner - Ann Romney, if you will - colluded to defraud.

Her name was taken off the suit in the settlement, but they forgot about the document statement from the expert witness tearing her story to shreds. So dang - Mitt is running for President, and the press still dug up this story - even though they settled out of court in exchange for removing Ann's name from the court records to try and hide the lawsuit - because the trainer got named to the Olympic team and Romney can't mix with mortals well.

This happened a couple years ago - but the Romney's still employ this trainer? This known cheater?

I cannot make any scenario whatsoever where any rational person - Mitt - could know they have a horse that could not be shown for 2 1/2 years because he is lame and done, knows he has ringbone, has paid multiple vet bills on this $125,000K horse that can't work (including insurance policies) - and suddenly the horse is sold as sound for $125,000 for a job it can no longer do?

And they don't think that's weird?

This has nothing to do with Romney's politics, but everything to do with the morals and business ethics of a man who wants to run this country. This isn't Mitt's first case of "money before living creatures".
This whole arguement is ridiculous and your comments are insane.

First of all if you are spending $125,000 for a horse and you are doing a pre-purchase exam (which I have done on any horse I spent $10k or more on) you should dam well know who the vet is that is doing the exam. The drug screening should be done properly and immediately before doing anything else. If they did X-rays etc why did the buyer not become aware of any of these issues? A simple flexion test (which should have been done prior to x-rays) and with X-rays wouldn't some if not all of the lameness issues have shown up? Seems like the buyers vet was completely incompentent. Also when did these issues arise from the horse was it within 30 days? Most sellers of a $125k horse would take the horse back if such issues arose immediately. Also I know from doing these exams that my vets always tell me absolutely worst case scenarios and are extremely careful at what they tell me and always error on the side of caution. If you were spending $125k (which I can never imagine spending on a horse) I would think you would be able to find a competent vet to perform the exam and provide you with accurate information. Riot as a professional in this area I think your anger should be at your collegue and not the seller because you are making assumptions about the seller from your own political views. Many times owners of horses ride the horses, show the horses and are unaware of many issues that the horse can have because the horse may not show these issues. As one vet told me you don't ride x-rays and many horses can tolerate things that show up on x-rays.
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  #46  
Old 06-22-2012, 03:42 PM
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Ann Romney's name didn't "get off all the legal documents." It's right there on the first page. She was dismissed from the complaint before it was settled. Why, if the case against her is as solid as you say, did the plaintiff dismiss her? Why did she dismiss the Ebelings? Why didn't the vet have to pay? I'd really like to know. Perhaps part of the answer is in the other proceedings. If you have a link for them I'd like to read the rest of the story.
'Nine days after ending her case against Mrs. Romney and the Ebelings, Ms. Norris settled with Dr. Herthel. The veterinarian’s lawyer, Mr. Schwartz, said his client paid no money. “They did not have a viable case and they quit,” he said.'

it sounds like the case must have had no merit. but hey, that doesn't matter-it's an easy way to attack someone who isn't even mentioned in the original suit, and whose spouse wasn't in the final resolution. but considering who started this three page line of bs, i can't say i'm surprised that it's been brought up.
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  #47  
Old 06-22-2012, 04:01 PM
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This whole arguement is ridiculous and your comments are insane.
No, they are not.

First, the involvement of the Romney's is what it factually is, no matter your characterization of my comments.

Secondly, yes, when you have a horse vetted in a different location, you use a local vet (if you cannot fly a vet you know there) for the initial rads and blood draws, and no, you may not know that vet. This isn't the race horse world where trainers know a variety of vets at the tracks they frequent, and some vets will travel north and south for summer/winter. That's why you get 2nd or even 3rd opinion purchasing a sport horse. As this buyer did.

All horses have problems. The suitability to work here was a big, direct lie by the sellers.

Yes, the vet said he screwed up the drug screening - or was it deliberate? Because then he said he gave another, third, drug that was found, but he did not note the third drug in the medical record. Then that leaves one more drug, a fourth. The trainer - Romney's agent and legal representative at the sale -is suspected of giving that drug.

The vet wasn't incompetent, as much as he was trying to sell a horse he knew was lame. The vet was complicit.

The buyer had to get another vet to get the previous x-rays and history on the horse.

A simple flexion test cannot diagnose ringbone - you need rads for low ringbone, as it's within the hoof, and yes, she had rads taken. The buyer was told that huge exotosis was always there, but that turned out to be a lie, when the second vet obtained the old x-rays for comparision, the old medical records, and went over the dressage scores the horse got in the past.

The presence of ringbone is an immediate killer to 100% of sales for horses intended to work. It was not mentioned by the seller or vet at the time of sale. Then the found presence was attempted to be "explained away".

Did anybody actually READ the expert testimony? All these details are in there. The horse was demonstrably lame for some time. Not just "problem on xray" or a "little deformity".

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Riot as a professional in this area I think your anger should be at your collegue and not the seller because you are making assumptions about the seller from your own political views.
Has zero to do with my political views. Sorry.

As I have said, yes, I have great anger at incompetent and cheating veterinarians.

But I also have great anger for cheating trainers and owners that dope and sell lame horses.

But this horse, again, was lame with ringbone - treated repeatedly for ringbone - for 2 1/2 years before the Romney's sold him. Ann knew she couldn't ride her horse, and knew why. For 2 1/2 years and multiple steroid injections.

Then suddenly the horse, who cannot be shown by Ann in lower level dressage for 2 1/2 years - is for sale as a serviceably sound, capable upper level horse for $125,000?

Baloney There is zero scenario where the owners of this horse they knew was lame and not showable in dressage, do not know how the horse was "made sound" to pass the prepurchase.

Especially when the vet called the owner agent - and not the buyer client - to discuss those nasty positives that were "found".

The argument that the Romney's didn't know Ann's horse was lame and it's career was over for 2 1/2 years - before they doped it and sold it as sound and $125,000 - is beyond absurd.

And after that doping 4 years ago, the Romneys choose to be still with the same trainer. The trainer that doped a horse they were selling, and caused a lawsuit.
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  #48  
Old 06-22-2012, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Danzig View Post
'Nine days after ending her case against Mrs. Romney and the Ebelings, Ms. Norris settled with Dr. Herthel. The veterinarian’s lawyer, Mr. Schwartz, said his client paid no money. “They did not have a viable case and they quit,” he said.'

it sounds like the case must have had no merit.
No. It sounds like Mitt Romney got Ann's name off the court case, in exchange for a refund of the $125,000 plus expenses for what is an unrideable pasture ornament, and no charges filed for fraud, because he was running for president even then.

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but hey, that doesn't matter-it's an easy way to attack someone who isn't even mentioned in the original suit, and whose spouse wasn't in the final resolution. but considering who started this three page line of bs, i can't say i'm surprised that it's been brought up.
Romney is the landowner of the farm mentioned in the suit, the trainer is his express employee on that farm, and was Ann Romney's direct agent.

And I'm not surprised at those here who are insisting the Romneys were not shocked that Ann's chronically lame horse, with ringbone, that couldn't be shown because it was lame, was magically sound one day, sold as an upper level dressage horse, for $125,000.

Because that's just ... normal. It was all the vet's fault according to those here. Not the trainer (who gave another painkiller on his owner as the owners legal agent).

Owners were clueless but thrilled they suddenly made such a windfall profit on Ann's lame, useless horse. One man's lame, useless, former dressage horse is - with the magic of four sedatives/painkillers - suddenly an upper level dressage horse again, and expensive! Horayy! Business deals are great!

Seriously? You guys expect the world to buy this fantasy defense of the Romney's selling a drugged-sound horse for big bucks? Of course ! The trainer and the Romneys are completely innocent. The vet did it all - in secret? - and the buyer - the victim of this fraud - well, it's her fault for getting taken for $125,000! The only people at fault here on Derby Trail are the vet and the purchaser. Why, if the Romneys and trainer had known someone was trying to buy their lame, ex-dressage horse they would have stepped in and prevented it! They knew the horse wsn't lame.

Please. I'm ROFLMAO at the Romney defenders. The sad thing is I know may of you guys like horses.
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  #49  
Old 06-22-2012, 04:08 PM
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No, they are not.

First, the involvement of the Romney's is what it factually is, no matter your characterization of my comments.

Secondly, yes, when you have a horse vetted in a different location, you use a local vet (if you cannot fly a vet you know there) for the initial rads and blood draws, and no, you may not know that vet. This isn't the race horse world where trainers know a variety of vets at the tracks they frequent, and some vets will travel north and south for summer/winter. That's why you get 2nd or even 3rd opinion purchasing a sport horse. As this buyer did.

All horses have problems. The suitability to work here was a big, direct lie by the sellers.

Yes, the vet said he screwed up the drug screening - or was it deliberate? Because then he said he gave another, third, drug that was found, but he did not note the third drug in the medical record. Then that leaves one more drug, a fourth. The trainer - Romney's agent and legal representative at the sale -is suspected of giving that drug.

The vet wasn't incompetent, as much as he was trying to sell a horse he knew was lame. The vet was complicit.

The buyer had to get another vet to get the previous x-rays and history on the horse.

A simple flexion test cannot diagnose ringbone - you need rads for low ringbone, as it's within the hoof, and yes, she had rads taken. The buyer was told that huge exotosis was always there, but that turned out to be a lie, when the second vet obtained the old x-rays for comparision, the old medical records, and went over the dressage scores the horse got in the past.

The presence of ringbone is an immediate killer to 100% of sales for horses intended to work. It was not mentioned by the seller or vet at the time of sale. Then the found presence was attempted to be "explained away".

Did anybody actually READ the expert testimony? All these details are in there. The horse was demonstrably lame for some time. Not just "problem on xray" or a "little deformity".



Has zero to do with my political views. Sorry.

As I have said, yes, I have great anger at incompetent and cheating veterinarians.

But I also have great anger for cheating trainers and owners that dope and sell lame horses.

But this horse, again, was lame with ringbone - treated repeatedly for ringbone - for 2 1/2 years before the Romney's sold him. Ann knew she couldn't ride her horse, and knew why. For 2 1/2 years and multiple steroid injections.

Then suddenly the horse, who cannot be shown by Ann in lower level dressage for 2 1/2 years - is for sale as a serviceably sound, capable upper level horse for $125,000?

Baloney There is zero scenario where the owners of this horse they knew was lame and not showable in dressage, do not know how the horse was "made sound" to pass the prepurchase.

Especially when the vet called the owner agent - and not the buyer client - to discuss those nasty positives that were "found".

The argument that the Romney's didn't know Ann's horse was lame and it's career was over for 2 1/2 years - before they doped it and sold it as sound and $125,000 - is beyond absurd.

And after that doping 4 years ago, the Romneys choose to be still with the same trainer. The trainer that doped a horse they were selling, and caused a lawsuit.
SO why would a buyer spend $125k on a horse that hasn't shown in 2 1/2 years? Doesn't seem to add up at all. If you have $125k to spend on a horse you can spend money to find a reliable vet that you trust to do a pre-purchase exam.
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  #50  
Old 06-22-2012, 04:18 PM
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SO why would a buyer spend $125k on a horse that hasn't shown in 2 1/2 years? Doesn't seem to add up at all.
Yeah, how about that ... when the buyer showed up to try the horse, was the buyer TOLD the horse couldn't be shown? Was the buyer TOLD the horse had ringbone, which eliminated it as a dressage horse?

Any buyer will walk away immediately from any horse with ringbone. Everyone knows that.

Nope. A horse, drugged up to pass for sound, was introduced as horse who was capable of doing upper level dressage. here you go, try the horse! And they accepted the check for $125,000.

I can't believe you are trying to defend these low life scum horse dealers, and trying to blame the victim of their fraud and deceit.

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If you have $125k to spend on a horse you can spend money to find a reliable vet that you trust to do a pre-purchase exam.
Buyer did get a second opinion, after being defrauded by the first veterinarian - unexpected, I'm sure - and that's how this scam was exposed. Of course, the Romney's had no idea!

Okay, guys, your turn: Let's hear the plausible way this went down, consistent with the findings and dates in the expert witness statement, that shows the Romney's could not have know their lame horse was sold as sound. For $125,000. Explain how the Romney's are innocent and unknowing.
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  #51  
Old 06-22-2012, 04:29 PM
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SO why would a buyer spend $125k on a horse that hasn't shown in 2 1/2 years? Doesn't seem to add up at all. If you have $125k to spend on a horse you can spend money to find a reliable vet that you trust to do a pre-purchase exam.
wiphan, none of that matters. all that matters is that mitt romney is scum. you shouldn't let yourself be sidetracked by any of the minutiae regarding the case-it's irrelevant.
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Old 06-22-2012, 04:36 PM
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wiphan, none of that matters. all that matters is that mitt romney is scum. you shouldn't let yourself be sidetracked by any of the minutiae regarding the case-it's irrelevant.
No, Danzig, all that matters is the minutiae and facts of the case Which some of you are clearly choosing to deliberately ignore.

Last chance: can any of you, going through the expert witness testimony about what records were obtained about what medical history, and when - make any remotely credible case that the Romney's didn't know a thing about their doped unsound horse that wasn't shown for 2 1/12 years suddenly being sold as a sound upper level horse?

Anybody?

Bueller?
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Old 06-22-2012, 07:05 PM
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Bueller says it must be Bush's fault.
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Old 06-22-2012, 07:32 PM
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^^Bueller says she's batsh1t insane.
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Old 06-22-2012, 07:37 PM
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^^^^^

should be spending time on the HOL p4's
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Old 06-22-2012, 07:38 PM
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^^Bueller says she's batsh1t insane.
^^ Said a man who thinks the President of the United States isn't a legal American citizen

Next time some horse trainer gets caught with a positive, I'll remember you guys saying positive drug tests simply do not matter if you are Mitt Romney.

Face it: the conservative robot who drove 12 hours with his scared, defecating dog in a crate on the roof of a station wagon (a dog who then ran away upon arrival and was "left there" in the wilds of Canada by the Romney's when their vacation was over) did nothing about his current employee trainer, who drugged Ann's lame horse with xylazine, detomidine, butorphenol, and ronifidine so that the no-longer-useful ringbone horse could be sound long enough to be dumped on an unsuspecting buyer for $125,000 - and bought the Romney's a lawsuit for fraud.

Well done, Mitt ! Your fans admire your treatment of animals and your willingness to screw a horse and purchaser for money! You deserve it, Mitt! Screw the lady who had to sue you to get her money back.

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The lawsuit was filed in 2010, after a California woman purchased a horse (unfortunately) named "Super Hit" from Romney and Romney's Horse Training All Star Team (Please have matching Team Romney jackets with shiny silver star patches. Please have matching Team Romney jackets with shiny silver star patches.).

When Super Hit was examined by a vet to verify his pre-sale physical condition, the vet found that Super Hit was Super High on a positively Limbaughesque cocktail of painkillers.

The vet testified, "In my 38 years of practice, I have never come across a drug screen such as this where the horse has been administered so many different medications at the same time."

The jilted Super Hit buyer alleges that the painkillers were administered by Team Romney in an attempt to disguise the horse's bum foot, which made it impossible for the horse to perform feats necessary for dressage. Unleash the lawyers!

http://jezebel.com/5920642/that-time...ul-painkillers
By the way ... the veterinary discussion e-mail lists are not on the side of Mitt and Ann here. Gee. Wonder why?
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Old 06-22-2012, 07:57 PM
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The buyer "alleges"? when the vet she hired to do the pre-purchase exam admits giving 2 or 3 (he can't really remember) of said drugs. He also "assured" her the foot wouldn't be a problem. What qualified vet would give an assurance like that?????


And for the record, not all vets are supporting this vet.
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Old 06-22-2012, 08:02 PM
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The buyer "alleges"? when the vet she hired to do the pre-purchase exam admits giving 2 or 3 (he can't really remember) of said drugs.
No. The buyer didn't allege anything. The vet who gave the pre-purchase exam (who screwed the buyer) said for the court record he gave the horse two injections, which are documented in the medical record, but the horse also came up positive also for xylazine and ronitidine.

Exactly: what idiot vet would call ringbone "cosmetic blemish"? A lying one.

Then after the horse came up positive for four drugs, the vet changed his story and said well, I gave the xylazine, too.

But that still leaves the last sedative/analgesic. And a big fat lie. The vet also called the Romney's trainer to inform them the horse failed the drug test - not his client. Yes, this vet is a loser and a cheat. No veterinarian supports this vet.

Read the expert's testimony, it's all right there.

Ann Romney's horse has ringbone.
Gets worse.
Horse no longer can perform to elite level, is lame and given steroids regularly into joint.
Horse didn't show for 2 1/2 years because lame.
Romney's decide to sell horse.
The horse that was sold was not lame, and was sold as a "upper level dressage horse" for $125,000
The horse failed the drug test with four, count 'em, four painkillers/sedatives on board.
The horse could not perform as an upper level dressage horse.
The horse has terrible ringbone and was retired to pasture.
Lawsuit for fraud and deceit.

This isn't hard to understand. This is a common way of dumping a useless injured horse on someone else. You get the purchase price, you don't lose the insurance money.

Trainers drop them in a bottom level claiming race, or drug them and sell them as "sound" when they can't do the job you're selling them for. Plenty of ways for the unscrupulous to dump a horse that no longer has value, while getting that last money out of it.

Then the useless horse is someone else's problem.
$125,000 to Mitt and Ann's tax return for the horse farm business deduction. It was a profitable year!
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  #59  
Old 06-22-2012, 09:50 PM
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geeker2 geeker2 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rileyoriley View Post
The buyer "alleges"? when the vet she hired to do the pre-purchase exam admits giving 2 or 3 (he can't really remember) of said drugs. He also "assured" her the foot wouldn't be a problem. What qualified vet would give an assurance like that?????


And for the record, not all vets are supporting this vet.
Deb don't bother
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  #60  
Old 06-22-2012, 09:50 PM
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DaTruth DaTruth is offline
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHAStaNnEzA
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