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  #21  
Old 09-16-2020, 11:57 AM
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moses moses is offline
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Originally Posted by RolloTomasi View Post
Probably because City Zip passed away a few years ago and no longer generates money for the farm. Considering that a 6-figure sales price and a lopsided maiden win is what stamped Honor A.P. as a stallion prospect in Lane's End eyes, a cynic might figure these guys don't really follow top level racing to any great degree (so long as the stallion prospects get black type from somewhere).

On top of that, I doubt Farish wants to draw attention to Improbable lest he inadvertently boosts the horse's stallion profile.

Improbable ironically is a Lane's End product (to use the parlance of our time) having been bred by a Lane's End affiliate and being by City Zip out of an A.P. Indy mare. Farish himself campaigned the second dam. But alas, Lane's End couldn't see the potential in Improbable and chucked him out as a weanling for $110K (Lane's End was the consignor).

Now the horse is untouchable as a potential stallion replacement for City Zip at Lane's End because he's owned by arch rival Winstar Farm.
This is why you're one of the best posters on this board. That is some great knowledge right there. I don't follow breeding close enough to have even thought about putting those dots together.

The difference in handling for those horses is sort of interesting. I'm not sure if this qualifies as irony but maybe it's noteworthy that Improbable was another "derby contender" who finished a disappointing fourth in the big race. Instead of being retired to stud early as a one-shot Grade 1 winner, Improbable came back for a very strong 4YO campaign and has, I assume, drastically increased his stud value. This year so far, he's got two more Grade 1 wins, $610,000 in earnings, and a very good shot at another Grade 1 win and significant earnings at Breeders Cup.

Of course, Improbable didn't have any injuries that I'm aware of and that changes things...but still interesting to me.
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  #22  
Old 09-16-2020, 11:09 PM
Betsy Betsy is offline
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Originally Posted by Dahoss View Post
Isnít the general disdain being shown here more for that ridiculous fluff piece about him than the actual horse?

I mean, I like the horse, bet him in the Derby and found the retirement and especially that article pretty nauseating.
Perhaps..as a huge fan of the horse, I love reading the articles as they make me feel better. I donít view them with the cynicism that so many do. Let me make it clear - I donít care if not everyone likes the horse; opinions make horse racing. What bothers me - not here so much as on board I visit more often is the need to rip apart his record, trash his agility, and pretty much display incredible ignorance about his races. I get it, he was 2 for 6..but Andy always says that wins are overrated to a degree. Also, you have to look at context. HAP ran very well in his debut, showed more promise breaking his maiden and then, off a 5 month layoff and a huge class jump, ran extremely well in the San Felipe. He took a step forward in the SA Derby. I think the Shared Belief turned many permanently against him, but he was severely undertrained for the race. As to the Derby, he ran even better than was first thought as he was on good legs. 6 starts - I think Honor A.P. accomplished a great deal, and I thought he was going to be even better later on and into next year.

If people want to dissect articles, go ahead - they have the right. I donít think Bill Farish said anything wrong, certainly not to be poked fun of. But, no big deal - Iím not forced to read it.

Do I think HAP will be a good sire? I donít know. His own sire, who I was deeply invested in since I loved him as a racehorse and since heís Indyís last big son at stud, has been promising but not and cold. That said, the fact that heís an outcross to Mr. Prospector mares should help. I think Honor A.P. is a gorgeous horse and very talented - his retirement has been like a punch in the gut, but hopefully he will be a good sire.
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  #23  
Old 09-16-2020, 11:19 PM
Betsy Betsy is offline
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Originally Posted by moses View Post
I was interested in seeing him run and, I think, continue to get better.

Try not to let it get you too down. This sport is filled with bitter disappointments and crushing defeats. But the beauty (or perhaps tragedy) of it is that it only takes one instance to fall back in love with it.

I think what youíre seeing as disdain is really just a general lamentation about the state of the sport. Many owners would rather send a horse to stud than continue to race it. The general belief seems to be that the overall quality and competitiveness of races suffers as a result.
Oh I know...and I agree; thereís always a promising horse around the corner. I love horses, thatís why Iím into the sport - itís not because Iím a gambler, lol. Itís a hard sport to love because horses break your heart, but theyíre the best...

I share that disdain, believe me. Racing has become primarily an avenue for breeding, sigh. In this case, though, even a minor tendon injury isnít good. HAPís owner stated outright that the colt would race next year - but what can you do? Fate decided it wasnít to be. I have no interest in seeing them try and push the colt to make it back - he probably would never be the same, anyway. Some of the comments Iíve seen have been frankly horrifying. I get people being upset about premature retirements..but save that for when perfectly healthy horses like Bernardini are retired. That still ticks me off. Donít be upset because owners want to care for the horse they love.
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  #24  
Old 09-17-2020, 01:31 AM
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RolloTomasi RolloTomasi is offline
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Originally Posted by Betsy View Post
I think the Shared Belief turned many permanently against him, but he was severely undertrained for the race. As to the Derby, he ran even better than was first thought as he was on good legs.
More realistically, the horse was severely overtrained for the Kentucky Derby.

Presumably taking his cue from Mike Smith's inane guidance, Shirreffs had the horse perform more workouts than normal leading up to the Derby, as he breezed only a week after the Shared Belief. He then put in 3 workouts with a jockey up, over increasing distances, on tightened surfaces different from what the horse was training over in the mornings (each time he breezed a few minutes prior to the first race in the afternoons), with overzealous gallop outs. That's a ripe formula for "squeezing the lemon dry" as they say.

Never mind the horse being over-the-top, it was probably also his undoing as far as his subsequent leg injury.

Outside of Mike Smith's typical straw-clutching post-race commentary, not sure where the presumption originated that John Shirreffs forgot to train Honor A.P. for the Shared Belief. As you said, wins aren't everything and most people wouldn't have been surprised to see Shirreffs use the Shared Belief strictly for what it was---a prep race.

At any rate, Honor A.P. does have Mr. Prospector within 4 generations (Honor Code's 2nd dam is by Mr. P). That carefully worded blurb in the Lane's End press release about his dam being free of Mr. Prospector was probably another clever ploy to confuse potential clients that somehow breeding to him would avoid inbreeding to Mr. Prospector, which is not the case.

Truth be told, I'm not sure why one would be scared of inbreeding to Mr. Prospector anyways. This year alone, 4 of the top 5 3yo colts (Tiz The Law, Maxfield, Nadal, Charlatan) are inbred to Mr. Prospector. Now 3 of those are on the sidelines which presumably is why inbreeding to Mr. Prospector is frowned upon (unsoundness), but the genesis of those injuries aren't necessarily solely genetic (i.e. supertrainers burn through horses of all shapes and sizes).

Certainly I'd much rather have Mr. Prospector influencing my horse's pedigree than I would have Mike Smith influencing its training...
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  #25  
Old 09-17-2020, 02:43 PM
Betsy Betsy is offline
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Originally Posted by RolloTomasi View Post
More realistically, the horse was severely overtrained for the Kentucky Derby.

Presumably taking his cue from Mike Smith's inane guidance, Shirreffs had the horse perform more workouts than normal leading up to the Derby, as he breezed only a week after the Shared Belief. He then put in 3 workouts with a jockey up, over increasing distances, on tightened surfaces different from what the horse was training over in the mornings (each time he breezed a few minutes prior to the first race in the afternoons), with overzealous gallop outs. That's a ripe formula for "squeezing the lemon dry" as they say.

Never mind the horse being over-the-top, it was probably also his undoing as far as his subsequent leg injury.

Outside of Mike Smith's typical straw-clutching post-race commentary, not sure where the presumption originated that John Shirreffs forgot to train Honor A.P. for the Shared Belief. As you said, wins aren't everything and most people wouldn't have been surprised to see Shirreffs use the Shared Belief strictly for what it was---a prep race.

At any rate, Honor A.P. does have Mr. Prospector within 4 generations (Honor Code's 2nd dam is by Mr. P). That carefully worded blurb in the Lane's End press release about his dam being free of Mr. Prospector was probably another clever ploy to confuse potential clients that somehow breeding to him would avoid inbreeding to Mr. Prospector, which is not the case.

Truth be told, I'm not sure why one would be scared of inbreeding to Mr. Prospector anyways. This year alone, 4 of the top 5 3yo colts (Tiz The Law, Maxfield, Nadal, Charlatan) are inbred to Mr. Prospector. Now 3 of those are on the sidelines which presumably is why inbreeding to Mr. Prospector is frowned upon (unsoundness), but the genesis of those injuries aren't necessarily solely genetic (i.e. supertrainers burn through horses of all shapes and sizes).

Certainly I'd much rather have Mr. Prospector influencing my horse's pedigree than I would have Mike Smith influencing its training...
Well, I thought those workouts were necessary because John had undertrained Honor A.P. for the Shared Belief ...he was working on behavioral issues. Personally, I expected him to win easily if he was at 80% or so, as he was for the San Felipe. Problem is, he got slammed by Cezanne at the start and ran erratically thereafter. Most racing media actually didnít jump off the bandwagon - some did, but it was primarily fans on boards who thought the SB proved he was mediocre. I saw those pre-SB workouts - I donít think he looked good at all - dull, frankly. So, I thought he definitely needed those faster workouts at DM. It turns out HAP got injured at the start of the Derby, probably in the NY Traffic incident, so weíll never know if he was over the top. I didnít think so - I thought he looked great in the week before the Derby.

Ugh, good point about HCís second dam being by Mr. P - how did I not even think of that, lol? Still, Mr. P inbreeding for an HAP foal would be at least a few generations away on both sire and damís sides given that we are referring to his grandsons as broodmare sire (Distorted Humor, Speightstown, etc...) so....not that closer!
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  #26  
Old 09-17-2020, 04:26 PM
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King Glorious King Glorious is offline
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Originally Posted by Betsy View Post
Perhaps..as a huge fan of the horse, I love reading the articles as they make me feel better. I donít view them with the cynicism that so many do. Let me make it clear - I donít care if not everyone likes the horse; opinions make horse racing. What bothers me - not here so much as on board I visit more often is the need to rip apart his record, trash his agility, and pretty much display incredible ignorance about his races. I get it, he was 2 for 6..but Andy always says that wins are overrated to a degree. Also, you have to look at context. HAP ran very well in his debut, showed more promise breaking his maiden and then, off a 5 month layoff and a huge class jump, ran extremely well in the San Felipe. He took a step forward in the SA Derby. I think the Shared Belief turned many permanently against him, but he was severely undertrained for the race. As to the Derby, he ran even better than was first thought as he was on good legs. 6 starts - I think Honor A.P. accomplished a great deal, and I thought he was going to be even better later on and into next year.

If people want to dissect articles, go ahead - they have the right. I donít think Bill Farish said anything wrong, certainly not to be poked fun of. But, no big deal - Iím not forced to read it.

Do I think HAP will be a good sire? I donít know. His own sire, who I was deeply invested in since I loved him as a racehorse and since heís Indyís last big son at stud, has been promising but not and cold. That said, the fact that heís an outcross to Mr. Prospector mares should help. I think Honor A.P. is a gorgeous horse and very talented - his retirement has been like a punch in the gut, but hopefully he will be a good sire.
Why does it bother you that others see him as not as much as you do? It doesn't change your opinion so just let it roll off. Andy calls me an idiot all the time for my opinions and yet, none of them have changed because he disagrees.
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  #27  
Old 09-18-2020, 08:09 AM
Betsy Betsy is offline
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Originally Posted by King Glorious View Post
Why does it bother you that others see him as not as much as you do? It doesn't change your opinion so just let it roll off. Andy calls me an idiot all the time for my opinions and yet, none of them have changed because he disagrees.
It doesnít bother me, King...Iíve posted on sports boards for years; if you canít deal with various opinions, you really shouldnít be posting in a place where people are naturally doing to disagree. My biggest issue in this case is that Iíve seen people say things about Honor A.P. that just werenít true, like that he was a stone closer (and thatís why heíd have a bad trip in the Derby) and had no speed. I never really debated anyoneís opinion about the colt since opinions are just that .. unless they passed off opinions as fact (as in the above example).
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