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  #41  
Old 06-12-2006, 06:57 PM
Betsy Betsy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oracle80
It was a great race. But to be beat elders in the BCC is another story. I personally think Flower Alley will slay all comers when he returns and I think the late comeback is by design. I think he wins the Whitney, the JCGC, and the BCC. His talent is immense, and his BCC as a 3yo against older truly unappreciated.
Yes, that's true - I wonder if he actually needs to beat his elders to win the Eclipse, anyway (if he wins the Jim Dandy/Travers), as long as he runs well. I think he belongs but I agree that Flower Alley is really good -not unbeatable, but certainly a tough, talented colt. I'm not going to make predictions and to clarify my other posts, I'm not predicting Bernardini will run the table or anything like that. He just floored me in the Withers and shocked me in the Preakness -I'm really looking forward to the summer/fall, and especially fall racing at Belmont. It doesn't get better than that.
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  #42  
Old 06-12-2006, 06:57 PM
blackthroatedwind blackthroatedwind is offline
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I'm not sure how you can describe his Traver's as " awesome ". He stalked a horse that was going 1 1/4 miles off a four month layoff and beat Roman Ruler who couldn't get 1 1/4 on the back of a flatbed ( and isn't that terrific anyway ).

I happen to think last year's BC Classic was at best an ordinary group. Saint Liam was a fairly nice horse who was questionable at 1 1/4, and considering how well Suave ran while contesting the pace I have a lot of trouble projecting Flower Alley's performance as anything particularly special.
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  #43  
Old 06-12-2006, 06:58 PM
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Seattleallstar Seattleallstar is offline
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"Coolmore" has already done well, Michael Tabor and Derrick Smith have done very well.

Thunder Gulch
Left Bank
Adieu
Jburg

just to name a few
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  #44  
Old 06-12-2006, 06:58 PM
Gander Gander is offline
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Hes certainly playing catch up to Lava Man right now.
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  #45  
Old 06-12-2006, 06:59 PM
oracle80
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cunningham Racing
I will for BC Juvenile Fillies, but not Juvenile....the reason is that I think Scat Daddy will win the Juvenile and have thought that since I saw him train at CD...I thought that First Samurai would win the Juvenile last year before he even debuted just by watching him train at CD in the mornings...obviously, he was the favorite but didn't win.....I LOVE Scat Daddy.

I'll prop bet Pletcher's fillies VS. Darley's fillies...niether is likely to win because of the law of numbers, but maybe we can say best finish between Pletcher fillies and Darley fillies, or do they have to win?

..You actualy have an advantage because I know Pletcher has that 1.2 million Johanessburg filly that Coolmore LOVES..

My ear is open...what are the conditions?..

Dinner in Louisville after the Cup. Loser pays, like to meet you anyway.
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  #46  
Old 06-12-2006, 07:00 PM
oracle80
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind
I'm not sure how you can describe his Traver's as " awesome ". He stalked a horse that was going 1 1/4 miles off a four month layoff and beat Roman Ruler who couldn't get 1 1/4 on the back of a flatbed ( and isn't that terrific anyway ).

I happen to think last year's BC Classic was at best an ordinary group. Saint Liam was a fairly nice horse who was questionable at 1 1/4, and considering how well Suave ran while contesting the pace I have a lot of trouble projecting Flower Alley's performance as anything particularly special.
I don't see any St Liams this year though. Is FA at Ghostzapper level? No. But I think this older group is subpar.
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  #47  
Old 06-12-2006, 07:00 PM
Betsy Betsy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind
The Woodward basically is " fall racing ".

I just feel like with horses this good they will not run in races like the Super Derby or Pennsylvania Derby and will point for a combination of the Travers, Woodward and Jockey Club Gold Cup. Considering Discreet Cat's obvious issues I could easily see them waiting the additional week for the Woodward and then going directly to the BC.
I don't think Bernardini and Discreet Cat will race against each other, either. Godolphin has some questions as to how far DC wants to go - they think he'll be ok at 1 1/8 (not positive) but it's a huge ? after that. I can see DC going for the Woodward and Bernardini the Gold Cup......I hope they just stay healthy and make it that far
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  #48  
Old 06-12-2006, 07:01 PM
blackthroatedwind blackthroatedwind is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seattleallstar
"Coolmore" has already done well, Michael Tabor and Derrick Smith have done very well.

Thunder Gulch
Left Bank
Adieu
Jburg

just to name a few
Adieu?

I think the others on that list just vomited seeing her included among them.

By they way, yes they have done well here, but I think the point was that those connections run a substantial majority of their best horses in Europe. If they raced them in the US instead I am quite sure they would be FAR more successful.
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  #49  
Old 06-12-2006, 07:01 PM
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brockguy brockguy is offline
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coolmore also had lion heart. dont think they'll go big time in the states like they are in ireland but they'll continur to give pletcher a good few horses a year.. their season is a little pear shaped at the mo. George injured, Horatio unfortunately gone! could be godolphins gain!
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  #50  
Old 06-12-2006, 07:01 PM
oracle80
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind
Adieu?

I think the others on that list just vomited seeing her included among them.

By they way, yes they have done well here, but I think the point was that those connections run a substantial majority of their best horses in Europe. If they raced them in the US instead I am quite sure they would be FAR more successful.
DING DING DING!! Rack Him as Rome would say. Post of the day.
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  #51  
Old 06-12-2006, 07:05 PM
Cunningham Racing
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oracle80
Black,
Don't you see one going in the Haskell and being saved for fall racing and one going Jim Dandy then Travers?
Discreet Cat will race in the Dwyer and Haskell - more than likely, and Bernardini will go Jim Dandy and Travers....the Haskell and Travers are both the same weekend and I think Darley has a GREAT chance of winning both of them...the only scare I have right now is Sinister Minister if he is lone speed in the Haskell but horses like Sweetnorthernsaint can't beat Discreet Cat IMO..

As for the Travers, Bernardini will tower over those horses...Jazil, Bluegrass Cat, Sunriver and Steppenwolfer, etc. couldn't warm him up if they wanted to...somebody else will have to emerge late to be good enough to beat Bernardini..
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  #52  
Old 06-12-2006, 07:05 PM
blackthroatedwind blackthroatedwind is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oracle80
I don't see any St Liams this year though. Is FA at Ghostzapper level? No. But I think this older group is subpar.
I don't disagree, but my argument is more with your overall appraisal of Flower Alley, who I do NOT believe would have won 85% of the BC Classics with his performance there last fall. We have simply become accustomed recently to relatively mediocre performances from 3YOs, or " injury " shortened careers, but as far as I'm concerned Flower Alley would have gotten his head handed to him by the likes of Silver Charm, Touch Gold, Skip Away and Point Given just to name a few.

I will also believe he is back at a top level when I actually see it. I will not accept on faith that a horse that isn't ready to appear in June of his 4YO year is just being brought along slowly. There has to be a story and the only question is how serious it is.
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  #53  
Old 06-12-2006, 07:07 PM
Cunningham Racing
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by liamc7
When and if ever Coolmore decide to take American racing seriously watch out.
The bottomline is that their money isn't a drop in the bucket compared to the Shiek's cash...not even close, but they're both loaded..
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  #54  
Old 06-12-2006, 07:08 PM
oracle80
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind
I don't disagree, but my argument is more with your overall appraisal of Flower Alley, who I do NOT believe would have won 85% of the BC Classics with his performance there last fall. We have simply become accustomed recently to relatively mediocre performances from 3YOs, or " injury " shortened careers, but as far as I'm concerned Flower Alley would have gotten his head handed to him by the likes of Silver Charm, Touch Gold, Skip Away and Point Given just to name a few.

I will also believe he is back at a top level when I actually see it. I will not accept on faith that a horse that isn't ready to appear in June of his 4YO year is just being brought along slowly. There has to be a story and the only question is how serious it is.
I'm not questioning that he had a setback. But a horse by Distorted Humor who has won a grade one would have been sent to stud had it been a career lessening injury. hes just too valuable and the owner/trainer are just too smart.
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  #55  
Old 06-12-2006, 07:08 PM
blackthroatedwind blackthroatedwind is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cunningham Racing
Discreet Cat will race in the Dwyer and Haskell - more than likely, and Bernardini will go Jim Dandy and Travers....the Haskell and Travers are both the same weekend and I think Darley has a GREAT chance of winning both of them...the only scare I have right now is Sinister Minister if he is lone speed in the Haskell but horses like Sweetnorthernsaint can't beat Discreet Cat IMO..

As for the Travers, Bernardini will tower over those horses...Jazil, Bluegrass Cat, Sunriver and Steppenwolfer, etc. couldn't warm him up if they wanted to...somebody else will have to emerge late to be good enough to beat Bernardini..
Wrong.

Discreet Cat is NOT running in the Dwyer and is being pointed to the Jim Dandy with Bernardini being pointed to the Haskell.
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  #56  
Old 06-12-2006, 07:09 PM
oracle80
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cunningham Racing
The bottomline is that their money isn't a drop in the bucket compared to the Shiek's cash...not even close, but they're both loaded..
Joel but whose money has been smarter to this point?
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  #57  
Old 06-12-2006, 07:10 PM
blackthroatedwind blackthroatedwind is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oracle80
I'm not questioning that he had a setback. But a horse by Distorted Humor who has won a grade one would have been sent to stud had it been a career lessening injury. hes just too valuable and the owner/trainer are just too smart.
Anything that MAY have gone wrong happened too late for him to go to stud this year so my guess is they are attempting to bring him back. I also believe there is a good chance they will but I also wonder just how effective he will be.

I am sure should there be anything seriously wrong they will not race him.
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  #58  
Old 06-12-2006, 07:11 PM
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brockguy brockguy is offline
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cunningham, the sheikhs are doing themselves any favors by bouycotting coolmore stallions, how are they supposed to challenge coolmore without their stallions. very bad move!
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  #59  
Old 06-12-2006, 07:11 PM
Cunningham Racing
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oracle80
Well his Travers was awesome as was his BCC. I hear he had a breathing problem in the JCGC and tend to believe it after his BCC. I thinkhis BCC performance would have won 85% of BCC's ever run. And I think that they set a campaign designed for HOY. Melnyk has too much cash to race one like that who isn't right.


85%??...Wow...doubt it...he wasn't even close to the best of his generation..Afleet Alex would have urinated on him (excuse my cajun)..he blossomed at year's end and finished nicely, but I don't give him that much credit..

I know Discreet Cat and Bernardini are more talented than Flower Alley....we'll see
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  #60  
Old 06-12-2006, 07:13 PM
oracle80
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brockguy
cunningham, the sheikhs are doing themselves any favors by bouycotting coolmore stallions, how are they supposed to challenge coolmore without their stallions. very bad move!
Coolmore bought better mares and stallions. Also, Demi is the sharpest guy in any room when it comes to horseflesh. Hes so far above the rest that its not even funny.
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