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  #41  
Old 10-03-2006, 10:24 AM
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Seattleallstar Seattleallstar is offline
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well the point I was trying to make is no matter where your run him he will not win, he will run 2nd against in some lowly ungraded stakes, then run 2nd or third in a grade 1
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  #42  
Old 10-03-2006, 10:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oracle80
Jerry how ironic is it that the quote that you apply here, no heart and class, applies quite well to someone I know.

like you can talk
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  #43  
Old 10-03-2006, 10:26 AM
oracle80
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seattleallstar
like you can talk
I can talk plenty Jerry, plenty.
Would you like me to once again post the famous posts and declarations and quotes you have made about horses who went on to win grade ones and even become champions?
I will give you a choice.
yes or no?
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  #44  
Old 10-03-2006, 10:33 AM
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legal precedent, my typhoon among others, and that 4 million dollar turf filly that Bill Mott trained a few years ago
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  #45  
Old 10-03-2006, 10:35 AM
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Sun King has won multiple graded races, including one this year. I don't think he's quite to Perfect Drift level yet.
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  #46  
Old 10-03-2006, 10:52 AM
boswd boswd is offline
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I don't know, I just have this feeling Sun King is ready to roll with a 1 1/4. I went back and watched that Whitney race and the Woodward again and he does not look like a horse that was ready to spent after a 1 and 1/8. He looked like he was ready to keep charging away.
but we'll see. I think Sun King will be quite a handfull for Bernardini.
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  #47  
Old 10-03-2006, 11:12 AM
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Slewstoo Slewstoo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seattleallstar
well the point I was trying to make is no matter where your run him he will not win, he will run 2nd against in some lowly ungraded stakes, then run 2nd or third in a grade 1
If you're talking about the Albert the Great stakes, it still had Premium Tap in it so it's not like he was facing a bunch of local horses at a crap hole like Thistledown.
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  #48  
Old 10-03-2006, 11:22 AM
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The perception that igonrant folks carry that he is a hanger is ridiculous.
I mean Invasor was being heralded as the only horse who could beat bernadini, and he beat him a nose. So basically you are talking about inches being the difference in the total perception of both horses. Since Invasor has only one loss on his dancecard, I'd say that qulaifies him as a super game animal.
In his Met Mile loss he was beaten a head by a horse whose won photo after photo at the highest level of competition and has shown to be an incredibly game animal.
Those two narrow losses to top notch horses do not make him a hanger in my book. What they make him is a horse capable of fantastic efforts when the race unfolds as preferable to his running style.
Hangers are horses who get beat time and time again regardless of trip and the figure the race comes up with. And I know i will be castrated by his fans, but Perfect Drift would come to mind these days as a textbook example. Hes consistently 2nd or 3rd regardless of what the pace is, and what the final figure of the race is.
If you think that had Invasor or Silver Train not been in those races, that Sun King would have pulled himself up and not won, I have a bridge to sell you.
What he is an unlucky horse. I've seen quiet a few of those in my life and like to think I know the difference. Medaglia was probably the most unlucky horse I ever saw. His 2nd place finishes were almost always to horses who freaked out and ran crazy figures that they never ran close to before or after, or in Perfectly Pleasant's case, a horse who was scary good for 4-6 months in his life.
Candy Ride(Pac Classic), Sarava(Belmont), Buddha(wood), Volponi(Classic) all ran races that they had never run before and never after by huge margins. medag was just an unlucky horse and the notion that he was a hanger was adsurd as evidenced by his many great wins.
Some horses are just unlucky and part of Sun King's poor luck is his running style which inhibits him in many races. But his Commonwealth race(in addition to his other wins) shoud really be watched again by anyone who thinks hes a hanger. Racing against a HUGE speed bias(its the day sinister minister won, and people tried to use Sun King's win as proof their wasn't a bias because they were too dumb to look at all the other races and see that Sun King's performance was just incredible kinda like Watchmaker tried to use Anees closing win on a ridiculous speed biased BC day at Gulf as proof their wasn't a bias that day ) he powered past the leaders like a runaway train on a track that heavily favored speed at a distance that wasn't optimal to him.
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  #49  
Old 10-03-2006, 11:24 AM
oracle80
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slewstoo
If you're talking about the Albert the Great stakes, it still had Premium Tap in it so it's not like he was facing a bunch of local horses at a crap hole like Thistledown.
Thats my boy Seattle, refuses to learn!!!!
The fact that it was a paceless race won by a horse who eventually won the Woodward is of no consequence to Seattle. He doesn't care about the facts, only his own emotion.
He once also told me that Medglia sucked as a racehorse, that was an exact quote.
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  #50  
Old 10-03-2006, 11:25 AM
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randallscott35 randallscott35 is offline
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I give Mike credit b/c in Sun King's first race a few years back at the Spa, Mike said that this was Zito's Derby horse, before he ever started. Now he turned out to be more of his older horse, but still.

And you know who won that maiden race? None other than Silver Train.
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  #51  
Old 10-03-2006, 11:28 AM
oracle80
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by randallscott35
I give Mike credit b/c in Sun King's first race a few years back at the Spa, Mike said that this was Zito's Derby horse, before he ever started. Now he turned out to be more of his older horse, but still.

And you know who won that maiden race? None other than Silver Train.
Silver Train wired them by many lengths. I bet Malheur who was effortlessly clearing to the lead before entrapping and running back with a new figure eight on at Belmont and winning by many.
The worst part about that was that my good friend was managing Buckram Oak's runners at the time and told me to bet Silver Train, who was trained by Ralph Ziadie at the time.
He asked me how much I made on the race and I just made a bitter face and I had to listen to him taunt me all night long when we went out on how much money I could have made.
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  #52  
Old 10-03-2006, 11:30 AM
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randallscott35 randallscott35 is offline
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I actually think he was trained by George Mikaledes (name?) at the time. Pretty sure.
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  #53  
Old 10-03-2006, 11:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oracle80
Thats my boy Seattle, refuses to learn!!!!
The fact that it was a paceless race won by a horse who eventually won the Woodward is of no consequence to Seattle. He doesn't care about the facts, only his own emotion.
He once also told me that Medglia sucked as a racehorse, that was an exact quote.

medaglia could never win the big one, or when raced agaisnt the best horses of the year he came up short. Beating Shah Jehan senseless doesnt mean anything, Repent was a much better horse
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  #54  
Old 10-03-2006, 11:36 AM
oracle80
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by randallscott35
I actually think he was trained by George Mikaledes (name?) at the time. Pretty sure.
THATS RIGHT!!!!!!!!! I was wrong Randall!!!
I was so burned up at myself that night, and then I had to listen to bull**** all night.
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  #55  
Old 10-03-2006, 11:38 AM
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randallscott35 randallscott35 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oracle80
THATS RIGHT!!!!!!!!! I was wrong Randall!!!
I was so burned up at myself that night, and then I had to listen to bull**** all night.
In fact, that's why I didn't bet him, lol. And I think he might have been wearing wraps for that start which is a no-no for me from a 2 year old.
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  #56  
Old 10-03-2006, 11:45 AM
oracle80
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by randallscott35
In fact, that's why I didn't bet him, lol. And I think he might have been wearing wraps for that start which is a no-no for me from a 2 year old.
Thats why I didn't bet him either. And it ruined my day. I singled Malheur who couldn't lose at the top of the stretch, until he lost his air, and then proceeded to watch the next legs of my pik-3 roll home.
I ended up catching the late pik-4 which ended on Birdstone which paid great, but all I could think of was that I only had a buck on it because I was down to pennies before it started and if I had at least saved with Silver Train in my pik-3's as a saver I would maybe have had 10 bucks on it instead of two bucks. Its like the difference between 8 thousand and 1600. Nothing To Lose was a cinch that day and I liked the horse who won the Kings Bishop at a decent price although his name eludes me now, do you remember who win it Randall? I got lucky when someone carried out the horse who was making a big move at the top of the lane, and my horse slid up the rail umimpeded and saved all ground and won.
My memory is crazy huh? I can remember exactly where I was standing in the clubhouse and exactly what tv monitor I watched the race on, and I can see the horse carrying out the other horse at the top of the lane and seeing my horse slide up the rail with a perfect trip like noone ever had,lol, but I can't remember his name.
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  #57  
Old 10-03-2006, 12:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oracle80
Thats why I didn't bet him either. And it ruined my day. I singled Malheur who couldn't lose at the top of the stretch, until he lost his air, and then proceeded to watch the next legs of my pik-3 roll home.
I ended up catching the late pik-4 which ended on Birdstone which paid great, but all I could think of was that I only had a buck on it because I was down to pennies before it started and if I had at least saved with Silver Train in my pik-3's as a saver I would maybe have had 10 bucks on it instead of two bucks. Its like the difference between 8 thousand and 1600. Nothing To Lose was a cinch that day and I liked the horse who won the Kings Bishop at a decent price although his name eludes me now, do you remember who win it Randall? I got lucky when someone carried out the horse who was making a big move at the top of the lane, and my horse slid up the rail umimpeded and saved all ground and won.
My memory is crazy huh? I can remember exactly where I was standing in the clubhouse and exactly what tv monitor I watched the race on, and I can see the horse carrying out the other horse at the top of the lane and seeing my horse slide up the rail with a perfect trip like noone ever had,lol, but I can't remember his name.
I just did some research. Is the horse whose name eludes you POMEROY?
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  #58  
Old 10-03-2006, 12:17 PM
boswd boswd is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oracle80
The perception that igonrant folks carry that he is a hanger is ridiculous.
I mean Invasor was being heralded as the only horse who could beat bernadini, and he beat him a nose. So basically you are talking about inches being the difference in the total perception of both horses. Since Invasor has only one loss on his dancecard, I'd say that qulaifies him as a super game animal.
In his Met Mile loss he was beaten a head by a horse whose won photo after photo at the highest level of competition and has shown to be an incredibly game animal.
Those two narrow losses to top notch horses do not make him a hanger in my book. What they make him is a horse capable of fantastic efforts when the race unfolds as preferable to his running style.
Hangers are horses who get beat time and time again regardless of trip and the figure the race comes up with. And I know i will be castrated by his fans, but Perfect Drift would come to mind these days as a textbook example. Hes consistently 2nd or 3rd regardless of what the pace is, and what the final figure of the race is.
If you think that had Invasor or Silver Train not been in those races, that Sun King would have pulled himself up and not won, I have a bridge to sell you.
What he is an unlucky horse. I've seen quiet a few of those in my life and like to think I know the difference. Medaglia was probably the most unlucky horse I ever saw. His 2nd place finishes were almost always to horses who freaked out and ran crazy figures that they never ran close to before or after, or in Perfectly Pleasant's case, a horse who was scary good for 4-6 months in his life.
Candy Ride(Pac Classic), Sarava(Belmont), Buddha(wood), Volponi(Classic) all ran races that they had never run before and never after by huge margins. medag was just an unlucky horse and the notion that he was a hanger was adsurd as evidenced by his many great wins.
Some horses are just unlucky and part of Sun King's poor luck is his running style which inhibits him in many races. But his Commonwealth race(in addition to his other wins) shoud really be watched again by anyone who thinks hes a hanger. Racing against a HUGE speed bias(its the day sinister minister won, and people tried to use Sun King's win as proof their wasn't a bias because they were too dumb to look at all the other races and see that Sun King's performance was just incredible kinda like Watchmaker tried to use Anees closing win on a ridiculous speed biased BC day at Gulf as proof their wasn't a bias that day ) he powered past the leaders like a runaway train on a track that heavily favored speed at a distance that wasn't optimal to him.
I loved Medaglia D' Oro, may have had a string of seconditis, I think he came back too soon to run in the Pac Classic, 2.5 week layoff, but he has The Travers and The Whitney to post on his resume. And some very game seconds, IMO tremoundous horse. Loved him.
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  #59  
Old 10-03-2006, 05:38 PM
SniperSB23 SniperSB23 is offline
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Musical Zito horses continues. Now that Spanish Chestnut is out he is considering running Wanderin Boy instead of Sun King. I say run them both as they'll complement each other perfectly.
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  #60  
Old 10-03-2006, 05:40 PM
oracle80
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SniperSB23
Musical Zito horses continues. Now that Spanish Chestnut is out he is considering running Wanderin Boy instead of Sun King. I say run them both as they'll complement each other perfectly.
Thats a touchy thing to do Sniper. They are owned by two different guys, and I dunno if he wants that perception that hes sacrificing one for the other.
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