Derby Trail Forums

Go Back   Derby Trail Forums > Main Forum > Equine Health, Retirement & Aftercare
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old 06-04-2011, 11:01 AM
Riot's Avatar
Riot Riot is offline
Keeneland
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 14,153
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kasept View Post
Undoubtedly. You should go ahead and carve that schedule in stone.
Yeah, right ....
__________________
"Have the clean racing people run any ads explaining that giving a horse a Starbucks and a chocolate poppyseed muffin for breakfast would likely result in a ten year suspension for the trainer?" - Dr. Andrew Roberts
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 06-04-2011, 11:04 AM
Riot's Avatar
Riot Riot is offline
Keeneland
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 14,153
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunder Gulch View Post
If he has equine hepatitis, what does that mean for his stud career?
Nothing. It's not a contagious hepatitis.
__________________
"Have the clean racing people run any ads explaining that giving a horse a Starbucks and a chocolate poppyseed muffin for breakfast would likely result in a ten year suspension for the trainer?" - Dr. Andrew Roberts
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 06-04-2011, 11:12 AM
Riot's Avatar
Riot Riot is offline
Keeneland
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 14,153
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by hockey2315 View Post
That's the link I posted above, Steve. They really did a good job spinning this, didn't they?
The Great Internet Cholangiohepatitis Conspiracy Theory.

__________________
"Have the clean racing people run any ads explaining that giving a horse a Starbucks and a chocolate poppyseed muffin for breakfast would likely result in a ten year suspension for the trainer?" - Dr. Andrew Roberts
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 06-04-2011, 04:56 PM
Merlinsky Merlinsky is offline
Santa Anita
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,045
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kasept View Post
Anyone going to bring up Devil May Care's liver issues and subsequent death?
I've been thinking of her ever since they discussed his symptoms before the Derby. It's pretty ambitious to focus on anything other than his health right now.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 06-04-2011, 11:32 PM
Soaring Softly Soaring Softly is offline
Suffolk Downs
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 100
Default

As soon as they said "an elevated enzyme" I thought Oh gawd No!

There is no way that this colt races again, and while I know nothing about these things, I fear that the question of his survival at all is up in the air.

I sincerely pray for his recovery.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 06-05-2011, 08:46 AM
Danzig's Avatar
Danzig Danzig is offline
Dee Tee Stables
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: The Natural State
Posts: 29,931
Default

i would be incredibly surprised if he ever went back to the track. and yes, an odd coincidence with that barn and another illness like this. here's hoping toy cannon goes to mott.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 06-05-2011, 09:19 AM
Arletta's Avatar
Arletta Arletta is offline
Jerome Park
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Meadow in the Sun
Posts: 9,385
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Soaring Softly View Post
As soon as they said "an elevated enzyme" I thought Oh gawd No!

There is no way that this colt races again, and while I know nothing about these things, I fear that the question of his survival at all is up in the air.

I sincerely pray for his recovery.
Did you read somewhere that he might die?
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 06-05-2011, 10:10 AM
trackrat59's Avatar
trackrat59 trackrat59 is offline
Washington Park
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: One the Chesapeake Bay
Posts: 884
Default

I hope Mo will be ok. Sounds potentially serious to me.

It's not Stay Thirsty's fault. He didn't enter himself in the Derby. If it were up to Thirsty he probably would have entered himself in some nice allowance race. You can't blame the horse for running over his head.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 06-06-2011, 04:52 PM
Riot's Avatar
Riot Riot is offline
Keeneland
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 14,153
Default

I'm sure Uncle Mo is just fine. I'm sure they made the diagnosis some weeks ago, just delayed the announcement to the public. I'd say he's been treated, he's already responded well, he's gained back the 67 lbs, bloodwork shows it's under control, he's in light work, etc.

It's always possible to have a recrudescence, or an abscess, etc. in the future, but I wouldn't actively worry about it.
__________________
"Have the clean racing people run any ads explaining that giving a horse a Starbucks and a chocolate poppyseed muffin for breakfast would likely result in a ten year suspension for the trainer?" - Dr. Andrew Roberts
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 06-06-2011, 05:09 PM
blackthroatedwind blackthroatedwind is offline
Jerome Park
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 9,931
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot View Post
I'm sure Uncle Mo is just fine. I'm sure they made the diagnosis some weeks ago, just delayed the announcement to the public. I'd say he's been treated, he's already responded well, he's gained back the 67 lbs, bloodwork shows it's under control, he's in light work, etc.

It's always possible to have a recrudescence, or an abscess, etc. in the future, but I wouldn't actively worry about it.
I'm relieved to hear you're not worried about it. At least now I can get some sleep.
__________________
Just more nebulous nonsense from BBB
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 06-06-2011, 05:10 PM
Riot's Avatar
Riot Riot is offline
Keeneland
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 14,153
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind View Post
I'm relieved to hear you're not worried about it. At least now I can get some sleep.
That was rude and completely uncalled for, wasn't it?
__________________
"Have the clean racing people run any ads explaining that giving a horse a Starbucks and a chocolate poppyseed muffin for breakfast would likely result in a ten year suspension for the trainer?" - Dr. Andrew Roberts
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 06-06-2011, 05:21 PM
Antitrust32 Antitrust32 is offline
Jerome Park
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Ft Lauderdale
Posts: 9,413
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot View Post
That was rude and completely uncalled for, wasn't it?
I'm sure it had something to do with all the I'm sure's in your post.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot View Post
Can I start just making stuff up out of thin air, too?
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 06-06-2011, 05:23 PM
freddymo freddymo is offline
Belmont Park
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 7,083
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot View Post
That was rude and completely uncalled for, wasn't it?
Rude why? The horse is completely finihed and will never race again. Instead commenting on how lo and behold another Pletcher Stakes horse faces a life threaten liver disease you laud his weight gain. Who knows maybe they gave him steriods to help with his appetite?
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 06-06-2011, 05:34 PM
Riot's Avatar
Riot Riot is offline
Keeneland
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 14,153
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Antitrust32 View Post
I'm sure it had something to do with all the I'm sure's in your post.
Well, yeah, when people have posted here that they fear for the horses life (no reason to), and they fear he'll never return to the track (no reason to), and that it's weird of two cases in one barn (not at all weird, btw), and I'm a veterinarian who knows what was published and knows a little more yet about it, yeah, I'm sure.

Because unlike every other person on this thread, I'm not blindly guessing about something I really don't know a thing about.

Quote:
Can someone expand on this? How serious/chronic is it?
Damn sorry I added my professional opinion based upon my experience and my local contacts in the veterinary community.
__________________
"Have the clean racing people run any ads explaining that giving a horse a Starbucks and a chocolate poppyseed muffin for breakfast would likely result in a ten year suspension for the trainer?" - Dr. Andrew Roberts
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 06-06-2011, 09:54 PM
RolloTomasi's Avatar
RolloTomasi RolloTomasi is offline
Oriental Park
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,607
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot View Post
Well, yeah, when people have posted here that they fear for the horses life (no reason to), and they fear he'll never return to the track (no reason to), and that it's weird of two cases in one barn (not at all weird, btw), and I'm a veterinarian who knows what was published and knows a little more yet about it, yeah, I'm sure.
How could you possibly know the condition of Uncle Mo specifically, without having knowledge his medical history, examining the horse physically, reviewing the results of diagnositic tests performed on him, or observing his response to any treatment, even if you are a veterinarian?

You're gonna rely on Todd Pletcher quotes, WinStar press releases, and Blood-Horse reports to form a medical opinion? The opinion of one of those "animal talkers" that communicate through photographs alone sounds more reliable in comparison.

Just like everyone else, you're on the outside looking in.

Quote:
Because unlike every other person on this thread, I'm not blindly guessing about something I really don't know a thing about.
Nevertheless, whatever your skill set is, you are still merely guessing, too.

Because you're not directly involved with the horse.
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 06-06-2011, 10:15 PM
Riot's Avatar
Riot Riot is offline
Keeneland
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 14,153
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RolloTomasi View Post
How could you possibly know the condition of Uncle Mo specifically, without having knowledge his medical history, examining the horse physically, reviewing the results of diagnositic tests performed on him, or observing his response to any treatment, even if you are a veterinarian?

You're gonna rely on Todd Pletcher quotes, WinStar press releases, and Blood-Horse reports to form a medical opinion? The opinion of one of those "animal talkers" that communicate through photographs alone sounds more reliable in comparison.

Just like everyone else, you're on the outside looking in.



Nevertheless, whatever your skill set is, you are still merely guessing, too.

Because you're not directly involved with the horse.
As I said, damn sorry I added my professional opinion based upon my experience and my local contacts in the veterinary community.
__________________
"Have the clean racing people run any ads explaining that giving a horse a Starbucks and a chocolate poppyseed muffin for breakfast would likely result in a ten year suspension for the trainer?" - Dr. Andrew Roberts
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 06-06-2011, 10:29 PM
RolloTomasi's Avatar
RolloTomasi RolloTomasi is offline
Oriental Park
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,607
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot View Post
As I said, damn sorry I added my professional opinion based upon my experience and my local contacts in the veterinary community.
Apology accepted.

Now that you have proven that you have the inside scoop on such matters, can you please distinguish Uncle Mo's case from Devil May Care's?

Going by the threadbare DRF and Blood-Horse articles that us peons have to rely on, the parallels between the two are remarkably similar.

Why has the most recent of the two garnered from you a "nothing to worry about" prognosis, while the earlier one resulted in a dead horse?
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 06-06-2011, 10:35 PM
Riot's Avatar
Riot Riot is offline
Keeneland
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 14,153
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RolloTomasi View Post
Why has the most recent of the two garnered from you a "nothing to worry about" prognosis, while the earlier one resulted in a dead horse?
Here's a link to the Merck Manual Online. Just enter "hepatic" as your search term and go from the page of topics that comes up. "Enzymes" are at the bottom.

Edit: so, sorry, here's the Merck Veterinary Manual Online. Best to start with that. Same search terms.

http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp
__________________
"Have the clean racing people run any ads explaining that giving a horse a Starbucks and a chocolate poppyseed muffin for breakfast would likely result in a ten year suspension for the trainer?" - Dr. Andrew Roberts
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 06-06-2011, 10:53 PM
Princess Doreen's Avatar
Princess Doreen Princess Doreen is offline
Randwyck
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: VA and Saratoga
Posts: 1,352
Default

From on-line Merck Vet Manual -

Cholangiohepatitis is a severe inflammation of the bile passages and adjacent liver, which sporadically causes hepatic failure in horses and ruminants. It is occasionally associated with cholelithiasis in horses.

Etiology:

Bacteremia due to an organism (eg, Salmonella ) eliminated in the bile, an ascending infection of the biliary tract after intestinal disturbance, or ileus are thought to be related to the development of cholangiohepatitis. In foals, duodenal ulceration and duodenitis may result in bile stasis, hepatic duct obstruction, and cholangiohepatitis. Parasite migration through the liver may predispose to cholangiohepatis in some animals. Gram-negative organisms, including Salmonella sp , Escherichia coli , Pseudomonas sp , and Actinobacillus equuli are frequently isolated from the liver. Clostridium sp , Pasteurella sp , and Streptococcus sp are less frequently recovered.

Clinical Findings:

Depending on the severity of infection and virulence of the organism, clinical signs may be acute with severe toxemia, subacute, or chronic. Most typically, cholangiohepatitis is a subacute or chronic disease process with affected animals showing signs of weight loss, anorexia, intermittent or persistent fever, or colic. Icterus, photosensitivity, and signs of hepatic encephalopathy are variable. SDH, AST, GGT, bilirubin, and total bile acid concentrations are usually increased. Peripheral WBC counts are variable, depending on the degree of inflammation and endotoxemia present. Acute, suppurative cholangiohepatitis may occasionally result in severe septicemia and death.

Lesions: In acute cases, the liver is swollen, soft, and pale. Suppurative foci may be visible beneath the capsule or on cut surface. Lesions in other systems may reflect septicemia and jaundice. Microscopically in acute cases, neutrophils are present in the portal triads and degenerate parenchyma. Purulent exudate is evident in the ducts. In subacute or chronic cholangiohepatitis, the inflammation is more proliferative and bile duct proliferation more pronounced. Areas of atrophy, regenerative hyperplasia, and periportal fibrosis may be evident.

Diagnosis:

Liver biopsy should be performed to confirm the diagnosis and to obtain a liver sample for aerobic and anaerobic culture and sensitivity. Differential diagnoses include other causes of acute to chronic hepatic disease, weight loss, colic, or sepsis. If neurologic signs are present, cerebral diseases must be considered. Because cholangiohepatitis is frequently associated with cholelithiasis in horses, the presence of one or more calculi must be ruled out.

Treatment:

Treatment based on culture and sensitivity results from liver tissue often gives favorable results. Therapy should be continued for 4-6 wk or longer. Liver enzyme (GGT) levels and biopsies should be repeated to monitor response to therapy. If no organism is cultured, broad-spectrum antimicrobial therapy against gram-negative, gram-positive, and anaerobic organisms should be administered. A combination of penicillin with either a trimethoprim-sulfa or an aminoglycoside or enrofloxacin may be used. Ampicillin or a cephalosporin can be used instead of penicillin. Metronidazole can be used in horses to treat anaerobic bacteria. Prognosis is good if fibrosis is not severe.
__________________
I l Cigar, Medaglia d'Oro, Big Brown, Curlin, Rachel Alexandra, Silver Charm, First Samurai, Sumwonlovesyou, Lloydobler, Ausable Chasm, AND Prince Will I Am

"Be daring, be different, be impractical, be anything that will assert integrity of purpose and imaginative vision against the play-it-safers, the creatures of the commonplace, the slaves of the ordinary.” Cecil Beaton
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 06-06-2011, 10:56 PM
GenuineRisk's Avatar
GenuineRisk GenuineRisk is offline
Atlantic City Race Course
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 4,986
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot View Post
Here's a link to the Merck Manual Online. Just enter "hepatic" as your search term and go from the page of topics that comes up. "Enzymes" are at the bottom.

Edit: so, sorry, here's the Merck Veterinary Manual Online. Best to start with that. Same search terms.

http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp
That was informative; thank you. For those of us not trained in the medical fields, we have no knowledge base to use in distinguishing severe hepatic conditions from less severe. We hear "hepatitis," especially from a stable where a horse has died from a hepatic condition, and it's easy to jump to conclusions, without knowing how distinct from each other the two cases may be.

Here's the direct link to cholangiohepatitis from the link Riot posted.
http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/in...m&word=hepatic

So basically, hepatitis is any inflammation of the liver, but can be caused by a variety of things?
__________________
Gentlemen! We're burning daylight! Riders up! -Bill Murray
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:43 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.