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  #141  
Old 01-30-2017, 10:53 PM
RHT2004 RHT2004 is offline
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Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind View Post
Best ever? That's funny.

Best horse since Ghostzapper is more like it. What he is really demonstrating is what happens when a great talent races against a lot of very mediocre supposed good horses.

Watching Arrogate against these horses is what it would have looked like if the 3YO Rachel Alexandra had raced against Songbird.
I'm with you on the last sentence.
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  #142  
Old 01-30-2017, 11:12 PM
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Cigar was better than Ghostzapper
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  #143  
Old 01-30-2017, 11:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Alabama Stakes View Post
Cigar was better than Ghostzapper
They both were a tad bit overrated. I'd take Arrogate, especially at this point in their careers, even though both of those other two had more promising beginnings.
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  #144  
Old 01-31-2017, 07:15 AM
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Originally Posted by RHT2004 View Post
When I say best ever I guess I get a tad excited. I should say best I have seen. My knowledge of the game goes back to like the late 90s. The best horses I have seen are Point Given, Bernardini and Ghostzapper. Ghostzapper being 1 by a lot. I have seen monster races from Quality Road and Frosted, but never anyone paring races up like Arrogate. Has a horse even Ghostzapper ever run 3 races like Arrogate just has?
I kind of figured that. Appreciate the clarification.

All of Ghostzapper's route races were monster races(his last 4). Plus among those he beat in those races were Saint Liam, Roses in May, and Pleasantly Perfect, all of which were better horses than anything Arrogate has faced, including Chrome, IMO.
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  #145  
Old 01-31-2017, 07:59 AM
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Maybe want to check Timeform's site, looks like the race may have had some severe timing issues.
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  #146  
Old 01-31-2017, 08:00 AM
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Originally Posted by cakes44 View Post
I kind of figured that. Appreciate the clarification.

All of Ghostzapper's route races were monster races(his last 4). Plus among those he beat in those races were Saint Liam, Roses in May, and Pleasantly Perfect, all of which were better horses than anything Arrogate has faced, including Chrome, IMO.
I just cannot agree that Roses in May or Pleasantly Perfect were better the than CC, Saint Liam probably not as well.
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  #147  
Old 01-31-2017, 08:44 AM
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Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up View Post
I just cannot agree that Roses in May or Pleasantly Perfect were better the than CC, Saint Liam probably not as well.
Just my opinion of course. Does CC's Classic last year beat Roses in May in '04? I have my doubts. Pleasantly Perfect beat MDO twice on the square, which is good enough for me, though PP wasn't his best when Ghostzapper beat him. Saint Liam's Woodward vs Ghostzapper is better than anything CC has run, and he also won a BC Classic. If they weren't better, they are most certainly in the discussion.

To throw another horse in there from that timeframe...I'm not positive CC is better than Congaree either.

Last edited by cakes44 : 01-31-2017 at 09:43 AM.
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  #148  
Old 01-31-2017, 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted by cakes44 View Post
Just my opinion of course. Does CC's Classic last year beat Roses in May in '04. I have my doubts. Pleasantly Perfect beat MDO twice on the square, which is good enough for me, though PP wasn't his best when Ghostzapper beat him. Saint Liam's Woodward vs Ghostzapper is better than anything CC has run, and he also won a BC Classic. If they weren't better, they are most certainly in the discussion.

To throw another horse in there from that timeframe...I'm not positive CC is better than Congaree either.
I think you need to clarify distances, I guess for discussions sake I am thinking 10 furlongs.

My memory of Pleasantly Perfect was he was a very nice 10 furlong horse who grinded his way to wins but was not overly fast.

Congaree at 8-9 furlongs was certainly a top top class horse.

I never thought Roses in May was very good historically.
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  #149  
Old 01-31-2017, 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up View Post
I never thought Roses in May was very good historically.
Agreed. I was just trying to compare Arrogate and Ghostzapper through some of the horses they faced, and now I've probably gotten to the point where the line of tangency ain't touching the curve anymore.
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  #150  
Old 01-31-2017, 01:36 PM
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Steve Haskin's saying on FB that he read a column by the Timeform US clocker disputing the final time of the Pegasus as 1:46 4/5 which would equal the track record. He said he timed it himself at 1:46.89. The blame seems to be on the discrepancy between the run-up of the Poseidon and the Pegasus. A FB friend of his posted pictures of the two and they do look different.
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  #151  
Old 01-31-2017, 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Merlinsky View Post
Steve Haskin's saying on FB that he read a column by the Timeform US clocker disputing the final time of the Pegasus as 1:46 4/5 which would equal the track record. He said he timed it himself at 1:46.89. The blame seems to be on the discrepancy between the run-up of the Poseidon and the Pegasus. A FB friend of his posted pictures of the two and they do look different.
What was Shaman Ghost's BSF in the race?
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  #152  
Old 01-31-2017, 01:57 PM
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So I timed it watching the race three times. While this is crude I got 1:46.95, 1:46.89 and 1:46.99
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  #153  
Old 01-31-2017, 03:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Merlinsky View Post
Steve Haskin's saying on FB that he read a column by the Timeform US clocker disputing the final time of the Pegasus as 1:46 4/5 which would equal the track record. He said he timed it himself at 1:46.89. The blame seems to be on the discrepancy between the run-up of the Poseidon and the Pegasus. A FB friend of his posted pictures of the two and they do look different.
at this point i think all that do this stuff professionally agree that the final time is wrong, I have seen anywhere from 146.10 to 146.90

either way its off, considerably.
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  #154  
Old 01-31-2017, 07:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Indian Charlie View Post
They both were a tad bit overrated. I'd take Arrogate, especially at this point in their careers, even though both of those other two had more promising beginnings.
Cigar and Ghostzapper had promising beginnings? Ghostzapper was 11 to 1 in his maiden win and cigar didnt really show promise till his 14th race of his career. Ghostzapper was not overrated. He was a freak at almost every distance. 120 beyer figure or more at 7F, 1mile, 1 1/8. and 1 1/4.
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  #155  
Old 01-31-2017, 07:17 PM
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Ghostzapper was legit, he is the standard in my book the last couple decades.
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  #156  
Old 01-31-2017, 09:31 PM
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Originally Posted by helicopter11 View Post
Cigar and Ghostzapper had promising beginnings? Ghostzapper was 11 to 1 in his maiden win and cigar didnt really show promise till his 14th race of his career. Ghostzapper was not overrated. He was a freak at almost every distance. 120 beyer figure or more at 7F, 1mile, 1 1/8. and 1 1/4.
Ghostzappers debut was fantastic. Eye popping even.

Cigar, I thought he was going to win a BC when he broke his maiden going 6f on dirt. He was so impressive I bet him just about every time he ran until he started his win streak on the East Coast. I believe he lost them all.

GZ didnt really live up to his debut until he ran at Saratoga.
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  #157  
Old 01-31-2017, 09:37 PM
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Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up View Post
Ghostzapper was legit, he is the standard in my book the last couple decades.
Yeah, it's pretty commonly held that he was the best horse in the last xx years. It's not an opinion I share however. Maybe Frankel asking to have Roses in May take back a little in the BCC tainted my opinion of him.

I think Candy Ride, Barbaro, Shared Belief and Arrogate were all more talented horses than GZ, albeit there are questions of soundness with all of them.

Also, I think Uncle Mo might have been exceptional too, but things didn't work out for him, and I may be slightly biased with him.

And American Pharoah, who knows how good he might have been?
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  #158  
Old 01-31-2017, 10:28 PM
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Originally Posted by cakes44 View Post
Just my opinion of course. Does CC's Classic last year beat Roses in May in '04? I have my doubts. Pleasantly Perfect beat MDO twice on the square, which is good enough for me, though PP wasn't his best when Ghostzapper beat him. Saint Liam's Woodward vs Ghostzapper is better than anything CC has run, and he also won a BC Classic. If they weren't better, they are most certainly in the discussion.

To throw another horse in there from that timeframe...I'm not positive CC is better than Congaree either.
If you're going to bring up Pleasantly Perfect as a horse that beat Medaglia d'Oro, I think we'd be remiss to not bring up Candy Ride. He destroyed MDO while setting a track record (sub 2:00) and earning the highest Beyer figure of 2003 (123). Prior to that race, he won a grade two on the grass while beating a multiple grade one winner in Special Ring. I think he merits a mention on this topic.
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  #159  
Old 01-31-2017, 11:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Indian Charlie View Post
Yeah, it's pretty commonly held that he was the best horse in the last xx years. It's not an opinion I share however. Maybe Frankel asking to have Roses in May take back a little in the BCC tainted my opinion of him.

I think Candy Ride, Barbaro, Shared Belief and Arrogate were all more talented horses than GZ, albeit there are questions of soundness with all of them.

Also, I think Uncle Mo might have been exceptional too, but things didn't work out for him, and I may be slightly biased with him.

And American Pharoah, who knows how good he might have been?
Uncle Mo was great. He was fast as a 2yr old. Had a legit sickness at 3 and came back to show true brilliance in a loss at Saratoga and the very fast Kelso romp.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ms-FD-LPEYc
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  #160  
Old 01-31-2017, 11:05 PM
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Originally Posted by knickslions2 View Post
So I timed it watching the race three times. While this is crude I got 1:46.95, 1:46.89 and 1:46.99
So that's like a 122 beyer. Dam he is good.
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