Derby Trail Forums

Go Back   Derby Trail Forums > Main Forum > The Paddock
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 11-08-2019, 09:11 PM
King Glorious's Avatar
King Glorious King Glorious is offline
Atlantic City Race Course
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Beaumont, CA
Posts: 4,607
Default Do Fans Deserve Any Consideration?

I was watching the Clippers game the other night and it was a nationally televised game in which their best player, Kawhi Leonard, arguably the best player in the game, didn’t play. A national debate has raged over whether or not the Clippers and Leonard owe it to the fans to have him play? Some say no and their only obligation is to do what they think is best for him and the team. Others say that the fans should be considered. The NBA makes tons of money from their television contracts. Fans pay big money to see the players play. These things lead to the huge contracts these players get. Is there any consideration that should be given to what fans want when it comes to sports? Or should owners who put their money up be solely left to determine what they want to do?

I ask this question because of what we saw in the Breeders’ Cup. As a fan, I was really hoping to see Bricks and Mortar and Midnight Bisou in the Classic. I knew it wouldn’t happen and I don’t blame the owners for not choosing to do so. But I don’t think it makes me wrong to want to see what might happen. When the day finished, what I learned about Bricks is that he is the best turf horse in the country. I kinda knew that going into the day. Had they taken on the challenge of the Classic and lost, I’d still know he was the best grass horse in America. Had he won, there would be no debate over whether or not he’s the best horse period. Of course, anyone with a brain has to understand that there are financial considerations involved in the decision making. It’s hard to turn down a chance to be 3/5 in a $4 million race for the chance to be 5/1 in $6 million race. In the end, you can understand and respect the choice they made but I don’t think it’s a crazy question to wonder if people should ever consider what might be best for the sport and not just for the individual? The NTRA put out a weekly poll showing the top ten horses in the country. We try to build up our year end marquee event and all the top horses are in different races. As racing fans, we understand why that is. Casual fans won’t understand it. The reason why Alabama vs LSU is a big deal tomorrow isn’t because people know the teams a expect a good game. It’s because they look at the rankings and that tells them it’s a good matchup. People like to see the best face the best and I think far too often, racing doesn’t provide that. Whether it’s no coordination in the national racing schedule so you have multiple top races in the same division on the same weekend or it’s adding extra races to the BC (fillies did quite well in the Sprint, Mile, and Turf so didn’t need their own races), racing seems to go out of its way to not promote top matchups and then when anyone suggests it’s something they would like to see, you get criticized for the mere thought. Why is it horsemen from other countries are so willing to step out of comfort zones and run their horses like Swain, Giants Causeway, Sakhee, Galileo, etc in the Classic when they could have opted to take the safer and probably easier path in the Turf?
__________________
The real horses of the year (1986-2020)
Manila, Java Gold, Alysheba, Sunday Silence, Go for Wand, In Excess, Paseana, Kotashaan, Holy Bull, Cigar, Alphabet Soup, Formal Gold, Skip Away, Artax, Tiznow, Point Given, Azeri, Candy Ride, Smarty Jones, Ghostzapper, Invasor, Curlin, Zenyatta, Zenyatta, Goldikova, Havre de Grace, Wise Dan, Wise Dan, California Chrome, American Pharoah, Arrogate, Gun Runner, Accelerate, Maximum Security, Gamine
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 11-09-2019, 12:33 AM
RolloTomasi's Avatar
RolloTomasi RolloTomasi is offline
Oriental Park
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,607
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by King Glorious View Post
I ask this question because of what we saw in the Breeders’ Cup. As a fan, I was really hoping to see Bricks and Mortar and Midnight Bisou in the Classic. I knew it wouldn’t happen and I don’t blame the owners for not choosing to do so. But I don’t think it makes me wrong to want to see what might happen. When the day finished, what I learned about Bricks is that he is the best turf horse in the country. I kinda knew that going into the day. Had they taken on the challenge of the Classic and lost, I’d still know he was the best grass horse in America.
Bricks and Mortar, who had never been 12 furlongs until Saturday, just staved off a modest CA-based gelding to get the win, and the key rival, Derby winner Anthony Van Dyck was in tight and nearly clipped heels just as he was charging at the leaders.

Midnight Bisou, always suspect at 9 furlongs, didn't even win the Distaff.

That said, I would have loved to have seen Bricks and Mortar in the Classic--win or lose--just to avoid hearing that screeched, tacky pre-scripted line from the announcer about being "built like a champion" after he edged a 50-1 shot.

Quote:
Why is it horsemen from other countries are so willing to step out of comfort zones and run their horses like Swain, Giants Causeway, Sakhee, Galileo, etc in the Classic when they could have opted to take the safer and probably easier path in the Turf?
Godolphin and Coolmore suffer from an embarrassment of riches. And want to pad stud fees if possible.

The 6yo Swain had already nearly beaten Silver Charm in the Dubai World Cup a few months prior to the Classic. He had also tanked in the BC Turf a couple of years earlier.

Giant's Causeway had never tried 12 furlongs and Coolmore already had the great Montjeu in the Turf.

When Sakhee and Galileo contested the Classic, Godolphin and Coolmore had major winner Fantastic Light (who had spoiled Galileo's unbeaten record one race prior) and St. Leger winner Milan in the Turf, respectively. They ran 1-2.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 11-09-2019, 08:42 AM
Dahoss Dahoss is offline
Keeneland
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 10,295
Default

To answer your question.....no
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 11-09-2019, 12:42 PM
King Glorious's Avatar
King Glorious King Glorious is offline
Atlantic City Race Course
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Beaumont, CA
Posts: 4,607
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dahoss View Post
To answer your question.....no
So just neglect them and continue to do business as usual?
__________________
The real horses of the year (1986-2020)
Manila, Java Gold, Alysheba, Sunday Silence, Go for Wand, In Excess, Paseana, Kotashaan, Holy Bull, Cigar, Alphabet Soup, Formal Gold, Skip Away, Artax, Tiznow, Point Given, Azeri, Candy Ride, Smarty Jones, Ghostzapper, Invasor, Curlin, Zenyatta, Zenyatta, Goldikova, Havre de Grace, Wise Dan, Wise Dan, California Chrome, American Pharoah, Arrogate, Gun Runner, Accelerate, Maximum Security, Gamine
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 11-09-2019, 03:28 PM
Dahoss Dahoss is offline
Keeneland
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 10,295
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by King Glorious View Post
So just neglect them and continue to do business as usual?
It’s a bit different in other sports. The Kawhi stuff is ridiculous but if at the end of the year they win the championship...wasn’t it worth it?

In racing, no one was neglected by two horses running in the most appropriate race last weekend. Now, if we go back to Zenyatta, I think her owners did the sport a disservice by continually finding the easiest spot possible (most of the time) but at the end of the day hard to argue with the results.

I didnt get Bricks running in the Classic at all and didn’t think Midnight Bisou should have either.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 11-09-2019, 06:59 PM
blackthroatedwind blackthroatedwind is offline
Jerome Park
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 9,931
Default

That idiot who trains Bricks and Mortar laughed when I told him about this discussion and said the horse can't stand up on the dirt.

But, what does he know.
__________________
Just more nebulous nonsense from BBB
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 11-09-2019, 11:18 PM
King Glorious's Avatar
King Glorious King Glorious is offline
Atlantic City Race Course
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Beaumont, CA
Posts: 4,607
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dahoss View Post
It’s a bit different in other sports. The Kawhi stuff is ridiculous but if at the end of the year they win the championship...wasn’t it worth it?

In racing, no one was neglected by two horses running in the most appropriate race last weekend. Now, if we go back to Zenyatta, I think her owners did the sport a disservice by continually finding the easiest spot possible (most of the time) but at the end of the day hard to argue with the results.

I didnt get Bricks running in the Classic at all and didn’t think Midnight Bisou should have either.
Thank you. I’m curious to know why you feel it was different with Zenyatra? If running in the most appropriate or most logical spot is all that matters, how do you fault her owners but are ok with others? Is it because you believe she was the best horse and needed to race against the best and you don’t think a horse like Midnight Bisou needed to run against the best because she wasn’t in that class? This year kind of reminded me of 2011 with Havre de Grace. She had already pretty much locked up her division heading into the BC and her owner threw her into the Classic. She ran fourth but still won HOY.

Perhaps I’m just way off. But when I think of some of the top female runners of the entire time I’ve watched racing, names like Personal Ensign, Winning Colors, Zenyatta, Rachel Alexandra, Rags to Riches, Enable, Miesque, and Goldikova come to mind and it’s not just because of how good they were but partly because their owners have them the chance to create their signature moments by trying something different.
__________________
The real horses of the year (1986-2020)
Manila, Java Gold, Alysheba, Sunday Silence, Go for Wand, In Excess, Paseana, Kotashaan, Holy Bull, Cigar, Alphabet Soup, Formal Gold, Skip Away, Artax, Tiznow, Point Given, Azeri, Candy Ride, Smarty Jones, Ghostzapper, Invasor, Curlin, Zenyatta, Zenyatta, Goldikova, Havre de Grace, Wise Dan, Wise Dan, California Chrome, American Pharoah, Arrogate, Gun Runner, Accelerate, Maximum Security, Gamine
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 11-10-2019, 09:53 AM
Alabama Stakes Alabama Stakes is offline
Havre de Grace
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: suffolk downs
Posts: 5,811
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dahoss View Post
It’s a bit different in other sports. The Kawhi stuff is ridiculous but if at the end of the year they win the championship...wasn’t it worth it?

In racing, no one was neglected by two horses running in the most appropriate race last weekend. Now, if we go back to Zenyatta, I think her owners did the sport a disservice by continually finding the easiest spot possible (most of the time) but at the end of the day hard to argue with the results.

I didnt get Bricks running in the Classic at all and didn’t think Midnight Bisou should have either.
Yeah Zenyatta took all those easy spots in those 13 Grade I Stakes she won. Which were the easy spots the 4 grade II wins. Ran twice in The Classic . Stop it.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 11-09-2019, 10:31 AM
King Glorious's Avatar
King Glorious King Glorious is offline
Atlantic City Race Course
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Beaumont, CA
Posts: 4,607
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RolloTomasi View Post
Bricks and Mortar, who had never been 12 furlongs until Saturday, just staved off a modest CA-based gelding to get the win, and the key rival, Derby winner Anthony Van Dyck was in tight and nearly clipped heels just as he was charging at the leaders.

Midnight Bisou, always suspect at 9 furlongs, didn't even win the Distaff.

That said, I would have loved to have seen Bricks and Mortar in the Classic--win or lose--just to avoid hearing that screeched, tacky pre-scripted line from the announcer about being "built like a champion" after he edged a 50-1 shot.


Godolphin and Coolmore suffer from an embarrassment of riches. And want to pad stud fees if possible.

The 6yo Swain had already nearly beaten Silver Charm in the Dubai World Cup a few months prior to the Classic. He had also tanked in the BC Turf a couple of years earlier.

Giant's Causeway had never tried 12 furlongs and Coolmore already had the great Montjeu in the Turf.

When Sakhee and Galileo contested the Classic, Godolphin and Coolmore had major winner Fantastic Light (who had spoiled Galileo's unbeaten record one race prior) and St. Leger winner Milan in the Turf, respectively. They ran 1-2.
All very good points, although I would be a little hesitant to use race results to justify why something shouldn’t have even been tried. Lets’s say Bricks doesn’t win and Midnight Bisou didn’t win, could an argument be made that loses in their own divisions were more harmful to their records or reputations than a loss in the Classic would have been?
__________________
The real horses of the year (1986-2020)
Manila, Java Gold, Alysheba, Sunday Silence, Go for Wand, In Excess, Paseana, Kotashaan, Holy Bull, Cigar, Alphabet Soup, Formal Gold, Skip Away, Artax, Tiznow, Point Given, Azeri, Candy Ride, Smarty Jones, Ghostzapper, Invasor, Curlin, Zenyatta, Zenyatta, Goldikova, Havre de Grace, Wise Dan, Wise Dan, California Chrome, American Pharoah, Arrogate, Gun Runner, Accelerate, Maximum Security, Gamine
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 11-09-2019, 01:54 PM
RolloTomasi's Avatar
RolloTomasi RolloTomasi is offline
Oriental Park
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,607
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by King Glorious View Post
Lets’s say Bricks doesn’t win and Midnight Bisou didn’t win, could an argument be made that loses in their own divisions were more harmful to their records or reputations than a loss in the Classic would have been?
In that regard, running in the Classic would be a means for the pro tem leader of another division to duck their respective supposed championship event.

Bricks and Mortar had a carefully crafted and well-executed campaign, no doubt. But considering the horses he was beating, apparently the turf division was lacking in depth. The best horse he beat prior to the BC was globe-trotter Magic Wand, a second-stringer (in Coolmore's distaff division no less), who only became a Group 1 winner today (after 20 starts) when she won a race in Australia 4 days after an unplaced run in the Melbourne Cup. In the Turf, Bricks and Mortar not only shipped west, he stepped up in trip, and beat a Classic winner (Anthony Van Dyck) and a solid international Group/Grade 1 performer (Old Persian). That was the championship performance needed to put an exclamation point on his campaign.

Midnight Bisou also had a well-manicured campaign with some soft spots punctuating a few battles with the hard-luck Elate. Ironically, Elate went for the Classic rather than taking another shot at Midnight Bisou at 9f, where the former excels and the latter is suspect. That move actually detracted from the Distaff and essentially just added more filler to an already underwhelming Classic. Nevertheless, you still had major division player Blue Prize, who was just rounding into her best form, and had nearly dead-heated with Midnight Bisou for a placing in last year's BC. When it was all said and done, Midnight Bisou was soundly beaten and her HOY aspirations--appropriately--popped like a balloon and may have even called into question her presumed dominance of the division.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:08 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.