Big Brown has Quarter Crack

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Pedigree Ann

I'm tired of hearing this. Secretariat was a darn good stallion; he sired 1) a Horse of the Year (Lady's Secret) 2) a Preakness/Belmont winner (Risen Star) 3) a Travers/Hopeful/Vosburg winner (General Assembly), 4) a Melbourne Cup winner (Kingston Rule), plus a good number of graded/group winners. As this recital indicates, Big Red was a stamina sire, however during his early stud career Claibourne and partners mated him as though he were a typical Bold Ruler son, with stamina mares. Only after his first 2yos got to the track did they realize their mistake and start to give him mares with a bit more speed (like Great Lady M.).

Affirmed was never expected to excell at stud by the Blood Grass elite breeders; he was by Exclusive Native, who was okay but not top drawer, while the damside was distinctly blue-collar. He was never given the top level mares, yet he still sired 1) a multiple US champion (Flawlessly), 2) a Canadian Triple Crown winner (Peteski), 3) classic winners (Trusted Partner, Bint Pasha), and numerous group/graded winners, including everyone's favorite, The Tin Dude. He, too, tended to produce horses who didn't excell at 2 on dirt tracks - most were better at 3 or older and on turf. That was a truly strange breeding result - a horse who never ran on turf and whose parents and grandparents never ran on turf should become an excellent sire of turf horses. Who can figure that one out?

he said they were disappointments, not failures. i would agree with that assessment. considering the talent those horses possessed, and the books of mares they were sent, i would say they were definitely disappointments, altho they did manage to get a few good horses. but the same could be said about a great many sires, who occasionally catch lightening in a bottle.

[miraja2]

I think it depends on what criteria you are looking at when you evaluate whether or not some sire is, or is not, a disappointment.

As a sire of racehorses Secretariat wasn't great, but he was pretty good.
As a sire of sires, he was useless.
As a broodmare sire, he was an absolutely huge success.

People could reasonably make the argument that Secretariat was a great sire by pointing to all of the Storm Cat and AP Indy blood in the breed today. Somebody else could also reasonably argue that no sire that completely failed in establishing a sire line should be called a great sire.
In some respects, both of those people would be right.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

It would have been almost impossible for Big Red to not have been an excellent broodmare sire when you consider the amazing quality and depth of the mares he was bred to.

Even if they weren't hits on the track - they were royally bred on the bottom and in such large numbers - many had to pop with good runners when bred back to top stallions.

I believe the best way to judge a stallion is to compare their success in relation to the quality of the mares they are being bred to each year.

Sires who consistantly move their mares up will eventually make it to the top as stallions. Stallions that move up mares like Distorted Humor, Storm Cat, A. P. Indy, Indian Charlie, Street Cry, Put It Back, Mr. Greeley etc have risen up - while stallions like Point Given and Fusaichi Pegasus .. who have thrown a few very good horses but underperform their book - they will start to fall down the ladder.

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

It would have been almost impossible for Big Red to not have been an excellent broodmare sire when you consider the amazing quality and depth of the mares he was bred to.

Clearly you are correct in saying that the fact that he saw so many quality mares has a lot to do with his success as a broodmare sire. But I think you might be selling him a bit short in terms of just how good of a broodmare sire he actually turned out to be.

It isn't just that he sired terrific broodmares like Fantastic Ways, Six Crowns, Terlingua, Weekend Surprise (etc.) that then produced really good horses on the track. The fact that arguably the two most dominant American sires of the last decade were BOTH out of Secretariat mares is fairly remarkable.
I don't care how good the mares are that a sire sees, THAT sort of production couldn't really be expected.

I guess I'm trying to say that he certainly saw enough quality mares that it was very likely that he would be a very good broodmare sire.
But I think he turned out to be a great one.

[2Hot4TV]

Originally Posted by miraja2

Clearly you are correct in saying that the fact that he saw so many quality mares has a lot to do with his success as a broodmare sire. But I think you might be selling him a bit short in terms of just how good of a broodmare sire he actually turned out to be.

It isn't just that he sired terrific broodmares like Fantastic Ways, Six Crowns, Terlingua, Weekend Surprise (etc.) that then produced really good horses on the track. The fact that arguably the two most dominant American sires of the last decade were BOTH out of Secretariat mares is fairly remarkable.
I don't care how good the mares are that a sire sees, THAT sort of production couldn't really be expected.

I guess I'm trying to say that he certainly saw enough quality mares that it was very likely that he would be a very good broodmare sire.
But I think he turned out to be a great one.

I think they made a big mistake with the mares that they sent to Big Red in the first 5 years. He got the best mares that could go a classic distance of ground and that mixed with his ablity to run forever produced offspring that could go 1 1/2 miles and longer. Thats where they failed with Big Red. He needed to cover mares that would throw some speed to his distance. Just my view.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by 2Hot4TV

I think they made a big mistake with the mares that they sent to Big Red in the first 5 years. He got the best mares that could go a classic distance of ground and that mixed with his ablity to run forever produced offspring that could go 1 1/2 miles and longer. Thats where they failed with Big Red. He needed to cover mares that would throw some speed to his distance. Just my view.

He got plenty of those.

He was given every chance to be the greatest stallion ever - trust me, they didn't fail him.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by miraja2

he sired terrific broodmares like Fantastic Ways, Six Crowns, Terlingua, Weekend Surprise (etc.) that then produced really good horses on the track.

I hear ya.

However, all four of those broodmares you mentioned were out of dams who were stakes winners on the track and each mother of those broodmares above had produced another stakes winner when mated with a different stallion than Big Red.

I've never been a huge believer in the concept of broodmare sires - or sire of sires - or stuff like that.