2/18 (OP) Southwest Stakes

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

1000% agree that it deserves to be on equal footing with the Wood. Same with the Florida Derby, Blue Grass, and SA Derby. My issue is more with any of them being grade ones in the first place. I don't feel like preps should be on equal footing with the main event, rating wise.

altho others are grade ones, only the derby, preakness and belmont are referred to as 'the classics'. everyone knows winning the gr 1 fla derby is not on par with winning one of the gr 1 classics.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by Danzig

altho others are grade ones, only the derby, preakness and belmont are referred to as 'the classics'. everyone knows winning the gr 1 fla derby is not on par with winning one of the gr 1 classics.

If everyone knows it, then it shouldn't be the same grade. IMO, the only grade one races for 3yo's should be the TC races, the Haskell, the Travers, the Super Derby, the King's Bishop, and the Secretariat.

[Travis Stone]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

IMO, the only grade one races for 3yo's should be the TC races, the Haskell, the Travers, the Super Derby, the King's Bishop, and the Secretariat.

I obviously am extremely biased in this case, however, I don't think the Super Derby is quite ready to return to grade one status. Early this decade the race had a few runnings that hurt its points, but lately, we've done okay:

- Lawyer Ron (Second in '06... lots of points)
- Grasshopper (Mineshaft winner... lots of potential)

If we get a good chunk of points out of Grasshopper this year, the race is in much better shape.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by Travis Stone

I obviously am extremely biased in this case, however, I don't think the Super Derby is quite ready to return to grade one status. Early this decade the race had a few runnings that hurt its points, but lately, we've done okay:

- Lawyer Ron (Second in '06... lots of points)
- Grasshopper (Mineshaft winner... lots of potential)

If we get a good chunk of points out of Grasshopper this year, the race is in much better shape.

If you base it on it's recent runnings, no, it shouldn't be a grade one. But I look at it in a different sense. The reason I would make it grade one is in the hopes that it can become that type of race. After the TC, it would be nice to have a set path for the 3yo's to aim to. The Haskell is the first logical big one, coming just about two months after the Belmont. The Travers is obviously next in the sequence. From the Travers to the Super Derby, the timing is perfect and also gives them enough time to be ready for the BC. If I were in charge, I'd make it a grade one and separate it from races like the Penn Derby, WV Derby, etc. I'd try to keep a clear top tier of races for the top horses instead of giving them so many equal options to chose from that it keeps them from facing each other.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

If you base it on it's recent runnings, no, it shouldn't be a grade one. But I look at it in a different sense. The reason I would make it grade one is in the hopes that it can become that type of race. After the TC, it would be nice to have a set path for the 3yo's to aim to. The Haskell is the first logical big one, coming just about two months after the Belmont. The Travers is obviously next in the sequence. From the Travers to the Super Derby, the timing is perfect and also gives them enough time to be ready for the BC. If I were in charge, I'd make it a grade one and separate it from races like the Penn Derby, WV Derby, etc. I'd try to keep a clear top tier of races for the top horses instead of giving them so many equal options to chose from that it keeps them from facing each other.

Your idea would be great for the fans as we'd have far less G1 winners going into the Triple Crown and those that suffer minor injuries during the TC are less likely to be retired without being a G1 winner. Unfortunately what would be great news for fans is terrible news for the breeders who can't stand those horses as G1 winners and we all know who holds sway with the Graded Stakes Committee.

[Travis Stone]

I am not a particular fan of how races are graded in today's racing arena. I think there are numerous flaws. And really, grades are pointless from a racing fan and handicapping perspective. But that's a double-edged sword as owners and trainers point horses to particular races because of grades. What sounds like a slippery-slope is just a brutal system.

If I were czar, races would be graded on a "post-race" basis. And a races grade would never be set in stone. For example, this Southwest on Monday was probably a weak G3 race, however, if Denis of Cork goes on to do great things, the Southwest of '08 gradually rises in rank. I think this could add a lot of merit, excitement and more fairly represent the graded system as opposed to what we have now.

Basically, we are assigning the race a numerical quality before we know who is in it!

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by Travis Stone

I am not a particular fan of how races are graded in today's racing arena. I think there are numerous flaws. And really, grades are pointless from a racing fan and handicapping perspective. But that's a double-edged sword as owners and trainers point horses to particular races because of grades. What sounds like a slippery-slope is just a brutal system.

If I were czar, races would be graded on a "post-race" basis. And a races grade would never be set in stone. For example, this Southwest on Monday was probably a weak G3 race, however, if Denis of Cork goes on to do great things, the Southwest of '08 gradually rises in rank. I think this could add a lot of merit, excitement and more fairly represent the graded system as opposed to what we have now.

Basically, we are assigning the race a numerical quality before we know who is in it!

Your system would screw over top horses. If Asmussen announces that Curlin is going to the Suburban then everyone else goes to the Foster and a bunch of claimers show up for the Suburban. Now you are going to award a G1 to the winner of the Foster and not to Curlin cause he was in a weak field even though the winner of the Foster ducked him. They could deny the horse a G1 until the BC Classic just by ducking him so he never beats a quality field. Or if you think that Curlin alone makes a race a G1 then had he run in the Mineshaft you'd have to instantly upgrade that to G1 based on his presence and he could choose whatever easy races were convenient to him and win G1s in all of them. Grading them ahead of time is a good thing, in my opinion, for this reason.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by Travis Stone

I am not a particular fan of how races are graded in today's racing arena. I think there are numerous flaws. And really, grades are pointless from a racing fan and handicapping perspective. But that's a double-edged sword as owners and trainers point horses to particular races because of grades. What sounds like a slippery-slope is just a brutal system.

If I were czar, races would be graded on a "post-race" basis. And a races grade would never be set in stone. For example, this Southwest on Monday was probably a weak G3 race, however, if Denis of Cork goes on to do great things, the Southwest of '08 gradually rises in rank. I think this could add a lot of merit, excitement and more fairly represent the graded system as opposed to what we have now.

Basically, we are assigning the race a numerical quality before we know who is in it!

The problem, IMO, with this is that it focuses too much on just the winner of the race. Denis of Cork could go on to win the TC but that wouldn't mean that the Southwest was that much of a race. Would you also then rank the allowance race that Denis won before this? You'd have to look at the accomplishments of the entire field and you might have to wait a year or two before finalizing that ranking. Smarty beat Borrego in Arkansas in 2004. It wasn't until the summer and fall of 2005 when Borrego finally broke through and took the Pacific Classic and JCGC.

I think that there has to be a grade on a race before the race. There has to be something for people to point to. Otherwise, what's to stop Street Sense from going in the Travers, Hard Spun to the WV Derby, Curlin to the Penn Derby.......and all of them making the claim that their horse is the best horse and therefore their race is the biggest race and the others are ducking them?

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

If everyone knows it, then it shouldn't be the same grade. IMO, the only grade one races for 3yo's should be the TC races, the Haskell, the Travers, the Super Derby, the King's Bishop, and the Secretariat.

there are plenty of races that aren't on par with others in the same grade, whether a 1,2 or 3.
but if the fla derby can be a gr 1, then the ark derby should be as well, especially considering the type of horses who have been running there the last few years. certainly has left more of a mark recently then the bluegrass.

Why not just go with size of the purse? Presumably the bigger purses should attract the best horses and presumably the best horses would win the biggest pots...

THey had this problem in chess, and finally they asked Kasparov "isnt the tournament with the most money the most important one?" "Yeah, basically that's it.." something like that.

Bad analogy. I know, but there's a pt in there..

[Mortimer]

Oh?