Johan...

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

A finished Livan still managed to put up just as good ERAs as Lohse the past two years and had a much better record. I agree that Livan will never be as good as he was but if he is available for one year and Lohse isn't then I think it is a much better deal for the Mets.

You know as well as I do that wins and losses are a poor measuring stick especially for middle of the road pitchers. Loshe was much better than Livan was last year.

Loshe- 192 innings 207 hits 57 bbs 122 k's 4.62 ERA hitters had a .279 avge against and .339 OBP

Livan- 204 Innings 247 hits 79 bbs 90 k's 4.93 era hitters batted .308 with a .371 OPB.

When you consider that Loshe played in Cincy and then Philly last year which are 2 stone cold hitters parks and considering that he played with an awful Cincy defense behind him for most of the year the edge is even greater. Livan used to K around 180 in a similar amount of innings, that drop is a horrible sign for a guy who allows as many hits as he does. He seems to be suffering from pitching 250 innings a year all these years. The Livan of 3 or 4 years ago is much better than Loshe ever was but he looks cooked.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

You know as well as I do that wins and losses are a poor measuring stick especially for middle of the road pitchers. Loshe was much better than Livan was last year.

Loshe- 192 innings 207 hits 57 bbs 122 k's 4.62 ERA hitters had a .279 avge against and .339 OBP

Livan- 204 Innings 247 hits 79 bbs 90 k's 4.93 era hitters batted .308 with a .371 OPB.

When you consider that Loshe played in Cincy and then Philly last year which are 2 stone cold hitters parks and considering that he played with an awful Cincy defense behind him for most of the year the edge is even greater. Livan used to K around 180 in a similar amount of innings, that drop is a horrible sign for a guy who allows as many hits as he does. He seems to be suffering from pitching 250 innings a year all these years. The Livan of 3 or 4 years ago is much better than Loshe ever was but he looks cooked.

When they are both pitching for a bad team then record is a bit more of a factor. Livan's K's were way down and his WHIP was horrible yet he still managed an ERA close to Lohse's. Regardless, it isn't who is better, it is what they will cost. And if Lohse wants a multi-year deal then I think they are far better off bringing in Livan to be insurance on a one year deal.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

When they are both pitching for a bad team then record is a bit more of a factor. Livan's K's were way down and his WHIP was horrible yet he still managed an ERA close to Lohse's. Regardless, it isn't who is better, it is what they will cost. And if Lohse wants a multi-year deal then I think they are far better off bringing in Livan to be insurance on a one year deal.

Maybe you missed the playoffs last year. The Diamondbacks were in them. Livan was a batting practice picher last year. If he came free they would be making a mistake.

[horseofcourse]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Maybe you missed the playoffs last year. The Diamondbacks were in them. Livan was a batting practice picher last year. If he came free they would be making a mistake.

Didn't Lohse make like one playoff pitch and give up a grand slam effectively ending the Phillies?? He's horrible, but I guess playing in the minor league as the Mets are in he'll be ok.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by horseofcourse

Didn't Lohse make like one playoff pitch and give up a grand slam effectively ending the Phillies?? He's horrible, but I guess playing in the minor league as the Mets are in he'll be ok.

He isnt very good but pitching in Shea with a solid defense behind him will make him bearable.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Maybe you missed the playoffs last year. The Diamondbacks were in them. Livan was a batting practice picher last year. If he came free they would be making a mistake.

Everyone in the NL was horrible last year.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

Everyone in the NL was horrible last year.

Livan was among the horribilist

[Cannon Shell]

The deal is done

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

The deal is done

Santana's great but deals like this make it impossible for most teams to keep their exceptional talents and are forced to trade them for prospects and move on.