Corinthian or Bernardini

[Betsy]

Originally Posted by pgardn

God I think I will throw up. Really, this statement is absolutely nauseating.

Horses like Smarty Jones and Funny Cide are loved because they are not deemed blue bloods.

So what you're saying is that racing fans only latch onto horses that are not viewed as bluebloods? Well, even if that is the case, I don't care. Horses like Bernardini are just as deserving of affection as the those you mentioned above, and if the public doesn't latch onto him, then fine. I don't care; I love the horse and he has a chance to do great things. If fans don't appreciate him (that's IF Bernardini lives up to his promise), well - that's their issue. I don't see any reason why Smarty Jones and Funny Cide are better for the sport than Bernardini; a great horse is a great horse, period.

Originally Posted by Betsy

So what you're saying is that racing fans only latch onto horses that are not viewed as bluebloods? Well, even if that is the case, I don't care. Horses like Bernardini are just as deserving of affection as the those you mentioned above, and if the public doesn't latch onto him, then fine. I don't care; I love the horse and he has a chance to do great things. If fans don't appreciate him (that's IF Bernardini lives up to his promise), well - that's their issue. I don't see any reason why Smarty Jones and Funny Cide are better for the sport than Bernardini; a great horse is a great horse, period.

Because the game has become a big breeding game and it stinks. Horses are taken off the track very early without a chance to build up any following. This is clearly a problem. Breeding for breedings sake. Lets just breed them and prance them around in front of judges like a dog show. You wanna dog show. I dont want a dog show. I watch racing for the athletes. Not for the conformation or trying to back up my beliefs about why a horse that has won is successful based on his heredity. Let them run.

[Betsy]

Originally Posted by pgardn

Because the game has become a big breeding game and it stinks. Horses are taken off the track very early without a chance to build up any following. This is clearly a problem. Breeding for breedings sake. Lets just breed them and prance them around in front of judges like a dog show. You wanna dog show. I dont want a dog show. I watch racing for the athletes. Not for the conformation or trying to back up my beliefs about why a horse that has won is successful based on his heredity. Let them run.

Well,
I can not argue that the racing game has now become the breeding game and that superbly-bred top racehorses run simply so they can command top dollar stud fees. However, Smarty Jones was retired early and he does not have what you'd call a great pedigree, although it's a nice one. So, it's not only the AP Indys and Storm Cats being retired.

If people want to root against Bernardini because of his pedigree and connections, that's their business and they have that right. My favorites are my favorites even if racing fans dislike them; I don't like the reverse snobbism, but it is what it is

[JJP]

Originally Posted by Betsy

So what you're saying is that racing fans only latch onto horses that are not viewed as bluebloods? Well, even if that is the case, I don't care. Horses like Bernardini are just as deserving of affection as the those you mentioned above, and if the public doesn't latch onto him, then fine. I don't care; I love the horse and he has a chance to do great things. If fans don't appreciate him (that's IF Bernardini lives up to his promise), well - that's their issue. I don't see any reason why Smarty Jones and Funny Cide are better for the sport than Bernardini; a great horse is a great horse, period.

Did you see Sea Biscuit? Were you rooting for War Admiral? I must admit I bet and rooted for Empire Maker over Funny Cide in the 2003 Belmont but its easy to see why the public pulls for the less regally bred horse. The general public are not rich stuffy aristocrats and they love to see an average Joe take down the "expected champion".

Originally Posted by JJP

Did you see Sea Biscuit? Were you rooting for War Admiral? I must admit I bet and rooted for Empire Maker over Funny Cide in the 2003 Belmont but its easy to see why the public pulls for the less regally bred horse. The general public are not rich stuffy aristocrats and they love to see an average Joe take down the "expected champion".

The public doesnt care about the breeding. It is the conenctions the people are cheering for. If Smarty Jones was owned by the Sheiks and Lion Tamer was owned by the Chapman's than the public would have been for Lion Tamer. Most people who watch the Derby have no clue who Storm Cat, Native Dancer, AP Indy etc etc are. Breeding has ZERO effect on who the public likes and doesnt.

Originally Posted by eurobounce

Breeding has ZERO effect on who the public likes and doesnt.

Yes it does. Horses are taken off the track too early to breed.

And the notion that racing fans are just gambling addicts and gambling addicts input all the money from the fan interest end is not true.

New owners and new fans. How to attract them.
Again I sense a very skeptical view that racing cannot change. Racing used to be huge in comparison with other sports. NASCAR has captured a huge fan base. The sport is stuck in the muck without some new ideas. The fractured nature of the sport with all its different entities all worried about their own territory... the willingness of bloodstock agents to work with trainers and breeders to rip off owners... the list goes on.

Originally Posted by pgardn

Yes it does. Horses are taken off the track too early to breed.

And the notion that racing fans are just gambling addicts and gambling addicts input all the money from the fan interest end is not true.

New owners and new fans. How to attract them.
Again I sense a very skeptical view that racing cannot change. Racing used to be huge in comparison with other sports. NASCAR has captured a huge fan base. The sport is stuck in the muck without some new ideas. The fractured nature of the sport with all its different entities all worried about their own territory... the willingness of bloodstock agents to work with trainers and breeders to rip off owners... the list goes on.

Patrick its a gambling drive game, get that through your head. WHo cares if he have 10 million new fans who don't gamble on it? What ****ing good will it do the game? You sit there and rail on and on about attracting the type of fans who will bring little Sally and little Sally to the track with a picnic basket, thats all fine and well but if they dont bet who cares? The industry is driven by gambling, and yeah we need new fans, the kind who bet. Other wise what good are they for the industry?

Originally Posted by oracle80

Patrick its a gambling drive game, get that through your head. WHo cares if he have 10 million new fans who don't gamble on it? What ****ing good will it do the game? You sit there and rail on and on about attracting the type of fans who will bring little Sally and little Sally to the track with a picnic basket, thats all fine and well but if they dont bet who cares? The industry is driven by gambling, and yeah we need new fans, the kind who bet. Other wise what good are they for the industry?

Exactly--it is more important to bring the right fans to the game instead of attracting the wrong fans.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by oracle80

Patrick its a gambling drive game, get that through your head. WHo cares if he have 10 million new fans who don't gamble on it? What ****ing good will it do the game? You sit there and rail on and on about attracting the type of fans who will bring little Sally and little Sally to the track with a picnic basket, thats all fine and well but if they dont bet who cares? The industry is driven by gambling, and yeah we need new fans, the kind who bet. Other wise what good are they for the industry?

I agree...but......



Let's not discourage little Sally from coming to Siro's after the races.

Originally Posted by oracle80

Patrick its a gambling drive game, get that through your head. WHo cares if he have 10 million new fans who don't gamble on it? What ****ing good will it do the game? You sit there and rail on and on about attracting the type of fans who will bring little Sally and little Sally to the track with a picnic basket, thats all fine and well but if they dont bet who cares? The industry is driven by gambling, and yeah we need new fans, the kind who bet. Other wise what good are they for the industry?

New fans WILL GAMBLE. You are mired in the muck also. No creativity, no new ideas to attract fans. You have to market to successfully sell a product. The industry makes incredibly futile attempts to do this. Mike you are satisfied with the status quo. I am not. I was drawn to this game before you because of the athleticism of the animals. I dont think you have any idea how many people my age where captured by racing because of Secretariat. We were shown a great athlete. And now we go to the track to see other athletes, and at the same time are drawn to the beautiful complexities of gambling. This is what you dont get. You have to step outside what all your people mired in the game tell you. They like the status quo.

Are you telling me we cannot draw more fans that will gamble to the game? If so you are giving up and should not be on any committees trying to show the beautiful part of the sport. And that is very simply running. The rest will come along. This is what I believe. Maybe you have been around naysayers too long.

Originally Posted by pgardn

New fans WILL GAMBLE. You are mired in the muck also. No creativity, no new ideas to attract fans. You have to market to successfully sell a product. The industry makes incredibly futile attempts to do this. Mike you are satisfied with the status quo. I am not. I was drawn to this game before you because of the athleticism of the animals. I dont think you have any idea how many people my age where captured by racing because of Secretariat. We were shown a great athlete. And now we go to the track to see other athletes, and at the same time are drawn to the beautiful complexities of gambling. This is what you dont get. You have to step outside what all your people mired in the game tell you. They like the status quo.

Are you telling me we cannot draw more fans that will gamble to the game? If so you are giving up and should not be on any committees trying to show the beautiful part of the sport. And that is very simply running. The rest will come along. This is what I believe. Maybe you have been around naysayers too long.

Naysayers? Quite the opposite. But I do believe that todays tracks are very hard to draw people to. Keeneland, Saratoga, and Del mar flourish with on track attendance while the rest suffer. Those three have beautiful grounds and a more relaxed atmosphere. The concrete dungeons elsewhere, well its hard to draw people to those places.
People love to bet football, its easy, and you can watch it on tv. You don't have to go to the stadium or a football simulcast place. The more houses that have horse racing tv channels on their systems, the better off we are.

[JJP]

Breeding doesn't directly influence them. But who is buying up all the Storm Cat and AP Indy colts? Its not the Chapmans or the Sackatoga stables; its the sheikhs and the ultra rich.

Originally Posted by JJP

Did you see Sea Biscuit? Were you rooting for War Admiral? I must admit I bet and rooted for Empire Maker over Funny Cide in the 2003 Belmont but its easy to see why the public pulls for the less regally bred horse. The general public are not rich stuffy aristocrats and they love to see an average Joe take down the "expected champion".

Yeah, but the average public and casual face fans do NOT support this game...the bettors do...

Originally Posted by Cunningham Racing

Yeah, but the average public and casual face fans do NOT support this game...the bettors do...

Well put. Pgardn I really don't get you, not even a little bit. You aren't an owner so why do you care what trainers or bloodstock agents do? And why would you care about fans who don't bet? How does that affect you?
Bottom line is that gambling drives the industry. More gambling, higher purses, more owners, more breeders, more new owners, etc. Its not rocket science to see this.
Do you really think that racetracks want more customers or more money bet? Its the money they seek, which comes from gambling.

I love this game more than anyone but Patrick let me give you an example of what happens when "fans" get attracted to the game, even for a day.
Sundays up here in Saratoga they have giveaway days. T shirts, bobbleheads, etc. Basically everyone within a 50 mile radius heads to the track for the giveaway and maybe stays to watch the races, party, etc.
Trying to get in the place requires a long wait in line, often shutting you out from the first race. The lines at windows are very long and filled with novices who dont know how to bet properly and spend 2 minutes at the window making one show bet. MOre shutting out. Incredible parking problems and traffic, etc. And for what? So a bunch of folks can get a t shirt. Gee thats just swell. They dont bet enough to make a dent in the handle one bit(these "fans" drawn to get their shirts and hats) and probably cost the track more in handle by shutting out players than they make on the handle the "new" fans bet.
Its why regulars have come to dread Sundays at Saratoga.

[hoovesupsideyourhead]

Originally Posted by oracle80

I love this game more than anyone but Patrick let me give you an example of what happens when "fans" get attracted to the game, even for a day.
Sundays up here in Saratoga they have giveaway days. T shirts, bobbleheads, etc. Basically everyone within a 50 mile radius heads to the track for the giveaway and maybe stays to watch the races, party, etc.
Trying to get in the place requires a long wait in line, often shutting you out from the first race. The lines at windows are very long and filled with novices who dont know how to bet properly and spend 2 minutes at the window making one show bet. MOre shutting out. Incredible parking problems and traffic, etc. And for what? So a bunch of folks can get a t shirt. Gee thats just swell. They dont bet enough to make a dent in the handle one bit(these "fans" drawn to get their shirts and hats) and probably cost the track more in handle by shutting out players than they make on the handle the "new" fans bet.
Its why regulars have come to dread Sundays at Saratoga.

but when that family shmo hits and ext for 70 bucks hes hooked lol and big betters dont go to family windows ..

[ateamstupid]

I love the always solution-oriented folks who preach about how the sport doesn't need fans, but gamblers.

Well, how the **** are we gonna get gamblers? You're not taking any gamblers away from the casinos, online poker, or anything like that. It's not happening.

We get gamblers by creating new fans, many of whom slowly evolve into gamblers or a combination of the two. That's what happened to me, and I'm pretty sure that's what happened to most of you as well.

There's no way to create horseplayers. You have to create fans first.

[paisjpq]

Originally Posted by oracle80

I love this game more than anyone but Patrick let me give you an example of what happens when "fans" get attracted to the game, even for a day.
Sundays up here in Saratoga they have giveaway days. T shirts, bobbleheads, etc. Basically everyone within a 50 mile radius heads to the track for the giveaway and maybe stays to watch the races, party, etc.
Trying to get in the place requires a long wait in line, often shutting you out from the first race. The lines at windows are very long and filled with novices who dont know how to bet properly and spend 2 minutes at the window making one show bet. MOre shutting out. Incredible parking problems and traffic, etc. And for what? So a bunch of folks can get a t shirt. Gee thats just swell. They dont bet enough to make a dent in the handle one bit(these "fans" drawn to get their shirts and hats) and probably cost the track more in handle by shutting out players than they make on the handle the "new" fans bet.
Its why regulars have come to dread Sundays at Saratoga.

but they still buy beer and hotdogs, and pay to park. So the track makes money even if the real followers get screwed. Plus I get to go on sunday's so thats a good reason to show up. lol

Something I will never ever get is the racetrack trying to market themselves as a "family destination." To me that is just weird. I think they should market themselves as a source of clean "adult" entertainment. Sure there should be "family" days. But for the most part, you want people there to drink and gamble.

Lets face it, the problem here is Pgrdn very mistakenly trying to draw a comparison to the needs of racing with needs of football or other sports. Those sports get more than half their revenue from the tv contracts, they need fans to watch or else the ratings are smaller and so is tv money.
Racing just doesnt work that way. Racing depends on money bet on the races. What the hell good is it if we had 100 million new "fans" for that matter who didn't bet? Bottom line is that the days of most tracks beinga destination to go to are over. Home wagering is the future of the industry and the salvation of it as well. Why is football so popular with people to bet through off shore accounts or with the corner bookie? Simple!!! You call in or type in the bet. Order a pizza and grab soda or beer from the fridge and sit in your chair or on your couch and watch football all day long.
Racing needs to be in the living rooms of as many homes as it can be with acessible and easy home wagering companies that are user friendly. Yes going to Saratoga is special, and attending big race days is as well. But does anyone truly want to to go the track on a Wednesday or Thursday if given teh alternative to bet from the comfort of home while eating or drinking whatever you want at low costs as opposed to the 6 dollar beers and hot dogs at the track? No way.