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Originally Posted by brianwspencer
I think that we agree more than we think we do -- and that it was just the way you said the original comment that tipped the whole thing.
I agree about patriotism, but what is patriotism? (Funny enough, I started writing a song called "Little Patriot" the other night talking about this exact thing....). Do you have to fall rank and file with your leaders to be patriotic? Do you have to support everything a leader does without question to be patriotic? Is questioning your government and not supporting a leader you don't believe in being patriotic? I contend that no, no, and yes are the answers there.
Being anti-Bush or anti-this-war may not be patriotic if we lived in a different society, but because it is America -- being proud to use one's freedom of speech against authority, in my eyes, is a perfect example of patriotism. Some people don't say it the right way and they don't present their ideas the right way, but being anti-Bush, anti-war, anti-killing saddam does not make one unpatriotic. I would say that cherishing your rights as an American to question things your government does that you don't believe in is just as patriotic as putting an American flag magnet on your pickup before driving it over a Dixie Chicks CD.
I guess I just feel that "patriotism" has been co-opted and redefined by Republican hacks and that they've created and maintained the "with us or against us" mentality. That says that you either 1.) support it, or you 2.)hate your country. That's Ann Coulter logic, which is to say, terribly faulty. Our country is not, and has never been that black and white, that dichotomous...and it never will be.
Is it unpatriotic to be disgusted watching a tyrant get lynched? Is it unpatriotic to admit that he is one of the worst human beings on the planet, but that yet he still does not deserve to be treated that way? Is it unpatriotic to not support the war or its architects, yet be disgusted and shattered every time a U.S. serviceperson is killed or maimed?
The Ann Coulters of the world want us to believe that it's all or nothing. That it is a liberal smokescreen to support the troops but not the war. I feel it is exercising every duty, and right, of an American to call attention to something I feel is inherently un-American while still supporting the Americans that are carrying it out and not wishing any harm upon them.
If that makes me and many of my fellow anti-war players unpatriotic, then we were never talking about the same word to begin with because that kind of patriotism is not one to be proud of.
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Thank you for having logical and thoughtful responses.
The comment that got under my skin and the reason that I posted that first post was, "Now, let's put the real war criminals on trial." Comments like that just really make me heated.
I agree with your post on patriotism. All the points that you made were valid. Given what I just typed, I feel when someone thinks that the US government is the "real war criminal" instead of the terrorists (and I personally include Saddam under the group "terrorists"), that is not patriotic.
You can disagree with the govnt, be anti-war and anti-bush and be very patriotic, but when you side with the enemy, there is no patriotism in that.
Citizens should be proud of the Freedom and Freedom of Speech that is included in the us citizen package, but just remember, without the people risking/giving their lives in war, presently and in the past, we would not have these Freedom's that we take for granted. The only point I wanted to make throughout this whole debate is to support the people who protect you.
I guess I should not have even posted to begin because politics is a very hard thing to debate especially when two people have very different views. But Brian, you seem to be a very reasonable person to have a debate with.