Is This Really the Best We Have?
 

Ok, let's first establish that Watchmaker is an idiot. This we already know. So the order of his selections is not the point of this post. He's basically got all of the correct nominations for the top 10. U can put them in whatever order u want. The point here is how depressingly weak this group is when this is your top 10. Horrible. We all can agree that Lava Man and Invasor are the top two I'm sure. After that:

1 - Invasor
2 - Lava Man

3 - Sun King-For all of his hard work, he's still only won ONE stakes this year, and it was a gr II sprint.

4 - Surf Cat-At least he has won three gr II races this year but only ONE was a route.

5 - Brass Hat-Has a gr I and a gr II but no wins since February.

6 - Silver Train-Has a gr I and a gr II and the Met Mile is considered a sprint by many.

7 - Premium Tap-Just won the first graded stakes of his career. One gr I win.

8 - Park Avenue Ball-One graded stakes win this year and that was a gr III.

9 - Good Reward-No graded stakes wins this year at all. No stakes wins PERIOD this year.

10 - Flower Alley-One graded stakes win this year and that was a gr III.

That means that from the #3-10 horses, in route races, which is what this division is about, we have these totals:

3 gr I (Donn, Met Mile, Woodward)
2 gr II (New Orleans Hcp, Mervyn LeRoy)
2 gr III (Salvatore Mile, Iselin Hcp)

Is this pathetic or what?

The top 2- Invasor and Lava Man are real nice horses, both treats to watch and saving what could have been a horrible Classic.

Sun King is a hard tryer and a nice horse we can count on seeing for the rest of this year. No world beater by any means but still a joy to have around.

Surf Cat has immense talent but shouldnt be mentioned anymore, hes done for the year. His wins were in short fields. Hes yet to do anything that would make him belong with the top 3.

Brass Hat got injured, thats part of the game.

Silver Train is a very nice sprinter who I cant wait to see next weekend.

KG...while I respect your opinion, Surf Cat has only raced 3 times this year due to injury. 2 sprints and 1 route (1 1/16). He is one incredibly versitale horse. He has stakes wins from 6.5 furlongs to 1 1/8. While I would love to see his connections race him outside of Cali, to see what he is really made of, I understand leaving him there and cleaning up where he is entered.

NTRE division leaders

Bernardini (145)
Invasor (ARG) (134)
Lava Man (126)
Sun King (78)
David Junior (68)
Dylan Thomas (IRE) (47)
Shirocco (Ger) (45)
Jazil (39)
Discreet Cat (26)
Giacomo (21)
UPDATED Sep 18, 2006

Not really sure what your point is here. There have been 10 G1s so far this year for older males at a mile or longer and six of them were won by the top two. Three of the other four were won by horses on the list. Would the list be significantly better if Seek Gold was on it instead of Flower Alley? They pretty much both suck. Once you get beyond the top 7 on that list you could pretty much throw whatever garbage you want in the last three spots.

That is a better list.

What does your first comment, " Ok, let's first establish that Watchmaker is an idiot. This we already know " have to do with the rest of your post? Is it important for you to criticize Watch in order to feel better about your complete lack of accomplishment in horse racing?

But, what's even funnier, is that while apparently conceding that Watch is an " idiot " ( which I happen to not agree with ), you use his top ten list to solidify your apparent point that the top older horses in the US are weak.

So, if Watchmaker is an idiot, then I guess you are as well.

But, " this we already know ".

How about this for a list. WHy dont we focus on the NOW and not the what ifs:

1) Lava Man and Invasor
3) Sun King

Mike has to explain also why Teammate is not in his top 10 for 3 year old fillies, even though she's finished good 2nd twice to Pine Island in the Alabama and Gazelle.

Ah, the Ap Indy fascination continues.

Look,
Its pretty obvious that the older horse division is pretty much gonna continute to fall far below the divisions of yesteryear.
Two glaring reasons why.
1) The Triple Crown has become a horse destroyer like nothing else in the game. Many people feel that some of the retired horses were retired for money only, but thats not the case. The injuries that these horses sustain are real injuries, and many are never the same after who don't succumb to injury. We don't get to see our best early three year olds race at 4.
2) The disproportionate money situation between breeding and racing.
You'd have to be a sheikh or eccentric to race on with a top 3 year old at age 4. The breeding deals are in the multimillions and pures money just isn't there to justify racing them on. The insurance premiums alone would be more than what a horse could earn at age 4.
Its real easy for joe six pack the fan to rant on about how these owners are all scum and should race the horse for the fan's enjoyment. Thats because Joe Six Pack has no vested interest in the horse financially. If Joe Six Pack was staring 10 million bucks in face he'd be on it like a dog on a meat truck.

Thats just how its gonna be. Unless we have a really nice gelding, a horse owned by a billionaire with a love of the game that exceeds his common sense, or a triple crown that doesn't require a horse to run 3 races totalling 31 1/2 furlongs at three different tracks in 5 weeks time, you can always count on the older horse divsion to have late developers who missed the crown, or foreign imports dominating it.
Of the horses on that list, only Sun King competed in more than one triple crown event.

Good Reward clunks up for second (essential the only horse in the beaten field who stayed on that day) in only one dirt race, stinks in his others, and he is ranked above Perfect Drift? Watchmaker hasn't been paying attention. Heck, I would rank Seek Gold ahead of Good Reward, since he actually won a G1 race, even if only at 9f.

Incidentally, Brass Hat was retired after his injury in the Stephen Foster; that makes 2 wins, a second in Dubai, and an injury race for 4 starts on the year. That is actually a pretty good record compared to some of these others.

Sun King at least has been knocking heads in better races and not losing by much - that used to be the way you found out who the good horses were, until winning less competitive races to pad your stallion page became the rage.

Ann I don't think they choose the less competitive races to pad the records only. I think that when the majority of geniuses who vote for year end honors decided that one day(Breeders Cup Day) was much more important than a whole year, that owners and trainers decided not to bang heads during the year because there wasn't any point in it. If I were an owner or trainer I would do the same. They are only playing by the new "rules" that have evolved.

Thanks for displaying a voice of reason on this topic. We're LUCKY to have had two horses in Lava Man and Invasor that have been dominant in the older horse division. There isn't a need to spread the wealth in top 10 list because, after the first 2, it's all scraps anyway. LM and Invasor are great for the sport, have interesting stories behind their success, and are fun to watch. Who could ask for anything more?

I agree. Having 2 horses like Invasor and Lava Man, not to mention one of the most potentially talented 3 year olds in a very long time is good enough.
Sun King has proved to be a worthy competitor and one of these days will get a huge win. Surf Cat was pretty awesome but I doubt will ever see him in a race that matters. If you like seeing him beat 3 horses than hes your guy. I'd rather root for horses like Lava Man.

Certianly not SC's and Headley's fault they don't show up to run against him..

Mike Watchmaker usually makes sense, but he lapses occasionally. TEAMMATE should be on the Top Ten Three-Year-Old Fillies list! I thought he picked her to win big races and she lost, so maybe he is letting his annoyance influence his list. :D

:D good one...

One may agree or disagree with some of Watchmakers lists but what is he going to do? He has to come up with a top 10 list using horses IN TRAINING or who have raced THIS YEAR. He can't use Skip Away or Cigar. He has two superior animals and then some moderate types and he's ranked them.

As u said, I am an idiot. I know this already and anyone that reads anything that I type knows this too. However, I don't get paid by a national publication to look like a professional and STILL be an idiot. I just do it on forums like these where my audience is limited. The point in putting that in first in the post was so that the thread didn't automatically turn into a "Watchmaker is an idiot" thread which it would have. The point was in saying that while we know that he is, in this instance, he actually got it right. Maybe the order would be changed by some but the horses are the right horses. The point was to illustrate just how weak this year's division is.