110, 112, and 111 post Dubai before the BCC for Curlin.

I dont remember him being that fast. When did he run 2nd to Red Rocks? Was that post Dubai?

Well yeah...on turf.

I know.

My comparison as much as anything is...doesn't seem like the horse is quite the same after Dubai, and the BCC is also on a track where it seems the horse is at a disadvantage. Comparing the merits and abilities of each horse is another discussion for another thread.

Its fair. Im not really arguing it.

It's not the track. The horse ran a few great races buts that's it. He got a pass for last race not being ready but he was beat fair and square today by a horse that is getting better each race. He is very over rated based on four races. I'd be surprised if he runs again.

Is 4 a few? And what was today if you're Collected is so good?
Calling him overrated shows a lack of understanding from you. I thought you were sharper, but as time goes on Im not so sure.

Give collected his due. He was excellent today and the best horse out there now.I can't believe you as a baffert fan don't see that. Again arrogate had a nice few races but I like horses that run more often and win more . Four races doesn't make me think greatness sorry. I really don't care if you think I'm sharp or not. I play this game cause I enjoy it. I have ups and downs. You mocked me when I said connected would win. Arrogate had a exciting four races but great horses don't blame tracks when they lose.

Privman PacClassic recap with Baffert reactions: http://www.drf.com/news/collected-ho...acific-classic

2:00.3 10f efforts looking like 112 Beyer for Collected, 111 for Arrogate per Jay..

Smith said he was having trouble getting ahold of it. He can't push off as well. He did better this time so it's possible to work on it vs concede he's doomed. Baffert seemed to believe he could get him ready off a layoff. He's basically got til November to teach Arrogate to learn to tolerate Del Mar. I get the feeling if he spends enough time working over it, he'll get to a place of making peace with the track. He'll never love it, but he might be able to do well enough that he can still win.

I think Baffert was loathe to just go 'ugh the track, he hates it' in part because the minute you say that, there's a point where you just don't get to go to the Breeders Cup. Because why would you if he's gonna tank it due to the track? If he doesn't want to bypass the Classic, he has to find a way to deal with it, and I think we saw enough that he can justify pressing on and making whatever adjustments he can. Arrogate did better when he was hussled. Clearly that's part of what's required.

Baffert should consider Arrogates next workout being at Santa Anita. If he looks really sharp, then its safe to say its the surface. Work him out again at DMR to make sure.

Then again, whats the point? If it is DMR, where would they run him? If it's not DMR, why would they run him? In other words, just retire him.

Collected is now 7 for 7 on the fast.
He's really,really good now............nothing counterfeit about him.
He might give Gun Runner a run for his money.
I wonder what happened to Arrogate's early lick ?
Today's trip for Arrogate was very similar to his BC Classic go,he just wasn't up to the winner.
It kind of looks like Arrogate needs to be pushed along now to get his best run........I'm not sure what to make of that.
Arrogate might not care for DMR,but nobody will know if he's near the same horse until he tries another track in this,his second season.........and that's not on his menu.
Accelerate seems a perfect fit for the BC Dirt Mile,he enjoys the 8th furlong a lot more than the 10th.........plus he's fond of DMR,and of course the competition will be easier.

I am skeptical that his below par performances are due to the track. Don't get me wrong. I am a big believer in horses for courses and in horses not liking certain tracks. I'm just not sure that this is one of those cases. But let's assume you are right and Arrogate doesn't like the surface. I have never heard of horses improving on surfaces that they don't like. If a horse doesn't like a track he's not going to improve over it with practice.

115 beyer for collected

This............................


-bt-

Yeah the horse ran a 115 beyer chasing wide. Every expert around says he's not the same, and he missed by a half. But you come out to post this. LOL

You said he was a "mortal lock"
- he lost on the square, don't care if he ran a 180 beyer

You said he's running because "he is ready"
- he wasn't

So which is it? He's not the same but you're touting his 115 beyer ... it's the same in the selections thread, when you win you plug all those " $$ winning" results. When you lose, it's a bad beat or someone else's fault, when you can't finish out the sequence "one time for the kid".

I sincerely wish I lived in your world, where the word accountability only applies when you're right. Eat your crow and move on, or keep touting "mortal locks" and get taken to task when they don't pan out, your choice.

-bt-

This is insane. He ran a 114 Beyer and lost by a diminishing half-length while covering 51 more feet than the winner. The idea that that's some huge disappointment should tell you that he is the opposite of "very overrated."

Thanks.