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-   -   Ripken Jr. & Gwynn elected to HOF, McGwire left out (http://www.derbytrail.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8628)

ninetoone 01-09-2007 01:05 PM
Ripken Jr. & Gwynn elected to HOF, McGwire left out
 
Cal is my all time favorite...I hope he can enjoy the moment despite all of the other talk that is going on...

Gander 01-09-2007 01:12 PM
Mcgwire should be left out. The right decision was made. Congrats to Tony Gwynn and Cal Ripken. They both deserve it and I think anyone with half a brain knows just because a specific era of baseball is tainted, it doesnt mean everybody who played during it is dirty. God knows when the time comes, Derek Jeter and Albert Pujols will be voted in first time around without anyone linking them to the dirty stuff, a la Mcwire, Sosa, Palmeiro and Bonds.

GPK 01-09-2007 03:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ninetoone
Cal is my all time favorite...I hope he can enjoy the moment despite all of the other talk that is going on...

Man...Tony Gwynn....was there a harder out in baseball??? Flat loved to watch him play....

Brad, you make it to many Orioles games?

saucon17 01-09-2007 03:46 PM
How the hell did Jose Canseco get six votes for the Hall of Fame. I guess
those writers don't care he admitted to taking steroids, they should
be banned from future Hall of Fame voting.

SniperSB23 01-09-2007 03:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by saucon17
How the hell did Jose Canseco get six votes for the Hall of Fame. I guess
those writers don't care he admitted to taking steroids, they should
be banned from future Hall of Fame voting.
At least he's honest which is more than you can say for the rest of them. I'd think the idiot who handed in an empty ballot just to assure Ripken didn't get 100% of the votes is the one who should be banned from future voting.

saucon17 01-09-2007 03:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SniperSB23
At least he's honest which is more than you can say for the rest of them. I'd think the idiot who handed in an empty ballot just to assure Ripken didn't get 100% of the votes is the one who should be banned from future voting.
Good point there, at least he was honest not like McGwire at the
Senate hearings not saying a word.

Gander 01-09-2007 03:50 PM
How the hell did Jose Canseco get six votes for the Hall of Fame.

If he got 6 votes, then Mcgwire should have only gotten 6. Both are cheats, but at least Jose has come out of the proverbial closet. How stupid does Big Mac think the general public is? What a fool. Guy has ruined this era of baseball.

SniperSB23 01-09-2007 03:54 PM
The sad reality is with how prevelant steroid use was during that era we can't say with 100% certainty that even Cal Ripken never touched them. We'll never know for sure with the clean guys.

Gander 01-09-2007 04:39 PM
Yes I know for sure Cal Ripken never touched steroids. I'd bet my collection of old racing forms on it :eek:

2 Dollar Bill 01-09-2007 04:51 PM
And... Number 14 Jim Rice..... waits again.............

Cannon Shell 01-09-2007 05:39 PM
Funny how McGuire and Canseco are castigated but Shawn Merriman is celebrated.

Cannon Shell 01-09-2007 05:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2 Dollar Bill
And... Number 14 Jim Rice..... waits again.............
What about the Goose? getting closer...

ninetoone 01-09-2007 05:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by T3B

Brad, you make it to many Orioles games?

GPK - Yeah, I usually make it out to a couple of games a year...it's a great time, even though the O's haven't been that great lately. Might be a good place for DT'ers to meet up one day even...

GPK 01-09-2007 05:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ninetoone
GPK - Yeah, I usually make it out to a couple of games a year...it's a great time, even though the O's haven't been that great lately. Might be a good place for DT'ers to meet up one day even...

went to a game a few years ago...fell in love with Camden Yards...had seats 11 rows up behind home plate...was the shizzle..

ninetoone 01-09-2007 06:14 PM
If anyone ever makes their way to the "Yard", they have a no-scalp zone where regular people with extra tickets can unload them for at or below face value. I'm not sure if they have this at every ball park, I've only been to a few.

I've done this several times with no problem & gotten some awesome seats....usually you end up paying under the ticket price, and usually you're sitting next to the person that sold them to you for a song. Buy 'em a cold one & a good time is guaranteed to be had by all....even if no one parks one deep into the Boog's BBQ sauce over the right field wall. (Boog, you got nothin' on Steve :) )

horseofcourse 01-09-2007 09:43 PM
I'm not sure McGwire is a hall of famer ever without the steroid stuff. He was injury plagued for a long time in Oakland. Several great years, but several mediocre ones as well. Take away the 580 homers and I don't know. He is a .263 career hitter with 1600 total hits. He hit .217 in postseason with 5 home runs in 129 at bats. Look at his numbers from 1988 through 1994...not good for supposedly a guy in his peak...yes he had injuries but also some patheitic years...his career then took off in 1995.

Even if he never took a steroid he is no hall of famer.

horseofcourse 01-09-2007 10:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaHoss9698
I seriously hope they make him wait years before they put him in for that display a year or so ago in front of Congress, but come on, you're kidding right? He was a power hitter, so why on earth take away his 580 homers. That is the reason he should be in, plain and simple. That's like saying take away saves and Dennis Eckersley or Rollie Fingers wouldn't be in the Hall. Baseball didn't ban steroids until after the 2002 season and right or wrong, he technically did nothing illegal. Now I think taking steroids are wrong, his refusal to answer questions, and susequent breaking down was embarassing and he was most likely aided by the steroids. But baseball did nothing about it then, so kind of hypocritical to do something to him now about it. Baseball didn't mind when his blasts were selling out games....
I'm not taking away his 580 homers. I don't think he was that extraordinary of a player all around. He was fantastic from 1995 through 2000. He had 7 straight years from 1988 through 1994 where he was nothing special at all. He had a full season where he hit .201 with 22 homers in 154 games in 1991. I don't think that is something true hall of famers do. 1989 through 1991 he hit .235, .231 and .201 in full seasons. HE had a great rookie year in 1987 then 6 great years at the end of his career. I don't think he is a hall of famer based on his straight numbers.

horseofcourse 01-09-2007 10:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaHoss9698
His homerun total assures him an entrance in. Again, he was a power hitter, so I could care less about his average. ANd you're line of 1988 to 1994 was nothing special is way, way off. You can make numbers look a certain way, but some are unavoidable. In '88 he had 32 HR (3rd in AL)and 99 RBI's, '89 33 HR's(3rd in AL) 95 RBI's, '90 39 HR's (2nd in AL) 108 RBI's(3rd in AL) and led the league in BB's, '92 42 HR's(2nd in AL) 104 RBI's and he was hurt most of '93 and '94 playing in only 54 total games with only 219 AB's combined both years. Then we know how he ended his career. Once again, he should admit what he did and since it wasn't illegal at the time he did nothing wrong technically. But numberswise he should be in.
I'm not way, way off...he did nothing special from 1988 to 1994. I didn't say he was terrible...just not special. He had some decent years and had some decent power numbers...but special is what he did from '95 through '00. I actually care about your average...that is what makes you special...doing it all. I admit he was that from '95 through '00 and his rookie year in '87 was that as well considering he was a rookie. '88 through '94 were injury plagued ('93, '94...horrendous '91 or run of the mill good power hitting years...'88-'90, '92). Is Jim Thome a hall of famer?? I don't know and I know I would rank Mark McGwire way, way below Thome as a player.

horseofcourse 01-09-2007 11:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaHoss9698
Then I'm curious as to what "special" is. Didn't know that doing something "special" was criteria for the HOF. I just thought it was being one of the best players in your generation. In the years you are talking about he was 3rd, 3rd, 2nd, '91 was an awful year no arguement there, 2nd in HR's and again he played in 54 combined games in '93 and '94. He was consistent at least. I'd say if Thome gets to 500 he's a HOFamer. And like I said, he wasn't a great all around player, never said he was. But he was an exceptional homerun hitter, steroids or not. I think you are kind of forgwetting that the years you are referring to were a lifetime ago baseball wise. Nowadays hitting 50 homeruns isn't really a big thing, it's expected. Back then it was a big deal. McGwire hit 49 his rookie year. He was the premier homerun hitter of his generation and probably the most feared hitter in his day. He should be in eventually.
Well, is Dave Kingman a hall of famer?? He was the premier power hitter in his day. He finished top 3 in his league in home runs 8 times in a 12 year period, leading the league twice. From 1975 through 1986 I don't think you can find too many hitters with more home runs than Kong. Does anyone consider him a hall of famer?? So he only hit .204 in 1982...who cares, he led the league in homers and that was his job!! Simply put, being a premier power hitter does not make you a hall of famer. I'm taking this argument to the extreme here but it's fun nonetheless!!

horseofcourse 01-09-2007 11:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaHoss9698
No Kingman isn't and he shouldn't really be compared to McGwire. There are certain achievements that seem to get you in automatically. 500 HR's, 300 wins, 3000 K's. Kingman doesn't have any of those. Well maybe the 3000 K's I have to check. :D And I see what you are saying. But you are making it out like McGwire had a few good years. Those years '88 to '94 were very productive numbers wise for him and he was among the league leaders in all of those years. His career #'s will get him in. I don't agree with the juice stuff but his career #'s are hard to avoid.
I think he's comparable to Hack Wilson who got in the HOF solely on a 6 year period 1926 to 1932 without any additional years that McGwire had and his so far untouchable 191 rbi season in 1930. Interesting side stat on Hack...in his 56 home run 191 rbi year in 1930 he also had 18 sacrifice hits!! Imagine that today...Felipe Alou laying down the bunt sign to Bonds!!

Gander 01-10-2007 07:59 AM
I'll have to agree that Mark Mcgwire was never that special of a player. He played for a pretty long time and accumulated a lot of HRs but lets face it, he is Dave Kingman on steroids. Nothing more. Even without the steroid controversy his numbers over his entire career arent that great. Its pretty obvious that his boom years werent because he became a "better hitter". I would have to say no and I hope he never gets in. But if he does, it doesnt matter anyways, the hall of fame is a tainted joke anyways filled with double standards.

eurobounce 01-10-2007 10:24 AM
The Baseball Hall Of Fame is a joke. A couple of voters turned in blank ballots. Come on, you are given a job to do and they decide not to vote.

Gander 01-10-2007 12:17 PM
And a couple people chose to vote for Ken Caminiti over Jim Rice and Goose Gossage. Can you explain this?

eurobounce 01-10-2007 01:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gander
And a couple people chose to vote for Ken Caminiti over Jim Rice and Goose Gossage. Can you explain this?
No I can't. This is why it is a joke to me. I cannot imagine why Jim Rice is not in the hall. It is sickening. The people who do vote (well some) do not take it seriously. One person who submitted a blank ballot said he did so because he didnt want Cal or Gwynn to get 100% of the vote--what kind of freaking logic is that.

Gander 01-10-2007 01:41 PM
Tony Gwynn is sick.

19 straight seasons of batting .300 or higher
7 seasons during that time batting .350 or higher
Lifetime batting average of .338
3,141 hits
5 times a gold glove winner

I sat very close to him the one time I visited San Diego (old stadium) and he is a lot bigger a guy than you would ever think. What a great player.

eurobounce 01-10-2007 01:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gander
Tony Gwynn is sick.

19 straight seasons of batting .300 or higher
7 seasons during that time batting .350 or higher
Lifetime batting average of .338
3,141 hits
5 times a gold glove winner

I sat very close to him the one time I visited San Diego (old stadium) and he is a lot bigger a guy than you would ever think. What a great player.
What is even sicker is that he is 1000 hits from Pete Rose's all time hits record. Gwynn was such a great player. And he did it all on one team which is awesome too. I miss seeing him in the 3 hole when I watch San Diego.

SniperSB23 01-10-2007 01:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gander
Tony Gwynn is sick.

19 straight seasons of batting .300 or higher
7 seasons during that time batting .350 or higher
Lifetime batting average of .338
3,141 hits
5 times a gold glove winner

I sat very close to him the one time I visited San Diego (old stadium) and he is a lot bigger a guy than you would ever think. What a great player.
Ichiro already has 6 Gold Gloves and can do anything Gwynn could do. Too bad he didn't start here from the beginiing. He still has a shot to match Gwynn's hit totals despite not playing here until he was 27.

Gander 01-10-2007 02:01 PM
Ichiro is pretty amazing, no doubt. Sweetest swing in baseball. The huge advantage for Ichiro is his speed. He gets a ton of infield singles (some may call cheap hits), something that Gwynn got hardly any of.

Both great talents and great people.

eurobounce 01-10-2007 03:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gander
Ichiro is pretty amazing, no doubt. Sweetest swing in baseball. The huge advantage for Ichiro is his speed. He gets a ton of infield singles (some may call cheap hits), something that Gwynn got hardly any of.

Both great talents and great people.
Ichiro is awesome. A rare breed in todays game. The best thing about Gwynn was the length of time he performed at the top. I want to see how Ichiro does once he loses his speed. No doubt that Ichiro is the better outfielder, but I want to see how he does in year 14 and beyond.

Gander 01-10-2007 03:10 PM
I dont think Ichiro will lose his speed until he hits 45 and by then he will be retired. The guy is in great shape and trains very hard in the off season. He will always be fast as long as he is a player.

eurobounce 01-10-2007 03:41 PM
45--whoa, that is saying something right there. You can stay in shape all you want but when you get older you lose a couple of steps. The hands get slower through the box and your feet dont move as fast.

Gander 01-10-2007 03:50 PM
Not when you train as hard as he does and eat rice paddies. The guy is a machine. Hes a professional and loves his work. Trust me, this guy may lose a step or two, but he will be beating out ground balls until he is 45.

eurobounce 01-10-2007 04:00 PM
I don't know. Michael Jordan couldnt do it when he got into his 40's - your body just cant do it anymore regardless what you do to keep in shape. I hope he does because he is a joy to watch.

timmgirvan 01-10-2007 04:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by eurobounce
I don't know. Michael Jordan couldnt do it when he got into his 40's - your body just cant do it anymore regardless what you do to keep in shape. I hope he does because he is a joy to watch.
Big size diff between MJ and Ichiro!! 90ft is less than the length of court, so I'll go with Ichiro!

Downthestretch55 01-11-2007 12:59 PM
Just my two cents...Pete Rose should be in the HOF.
I'm not sure if Roger Marris is in but if he's not, he should be.

timmgirvan 01-11-2007 01:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Downthestretch55
Just my two cents...Pete Rose should be in the HOF.
I'm not sure if Roger Marris is in but if he's not, he should be.
Pete should be there because of his on the field play....the fact that he's an idiot for betting on games that he managed shouldn't come into play! Roger Maris really had only 2 great years and that 's not enough for HOF


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