Another breakdown at Turfway
 

1st race. 3 horse. Goes down hard in the backstretch. That's 2 breakdowns in 2 days.

For the first time, Turfway is having to deal with cold weather. Woodbine has seen it's share of breakdowns too. Maybe it's the vertical drainage system. If the drainage system gets clogged with fiber, tire chunks, spandex, whatever -- the water will have no place to go -- it will most likely pool and freeze -- produce hard spots underneath the poly surface.

The track has less than 2 degrees of banking.

Last year, we had abnomally warm weather. We had days of 60 degrees in January. Poly didn't have a true winter test last year.

What makes you so sure it's the tracks fault??? How do you know that it isn't the trainer sending a sore horse out that shouldn't be running?? Polytrack is NOT going to keep a sore horse from breaking down.

Guys... in the bend it's gonna take years of speculation, denails, and trends to truly see if Poly is any safer than dirt. I'm still drinkin the kool aid right now that the stuff is safer.

Three days in a row at Turfway there has been a breakdown.
Wow, this stuff is just great.
Blue Eyes, I agree with what you are saying, running sore horses will break em down. But this stuff won't stop it either, its a con game like the balc construction paper the Nigerians sell you(washing solution costs extra).

hahaha, we will send you 15 million, but you need to pay us 100k for the bleach to clean off the money. What buffoon will go for that deal, sign me up

And that's exactly what I'm saying. Polytrack never claimed to keep horses from breaking down. Three days in a row of horses breaking down. You know what that really means? It means Polytrack doesn't ward off the butcher trainer. The butcher trainer "thinks" his sore horse won't break down on this surface. A few years ago a friend of mine was killed at Turfway. Had Polytrack been installed could it been avoided? I doubt it. It was clearly the trainers fault that horse broke down. Of course, the track took the blame but not everyone knew the true story behind the horse and trainer.;)

score one for the good guys.

this crap is not only toxic, but it is only marginally safer than real dirt.
Im sorry, but horses' lives are not important enough to spend $10M on a bunch of toxic crap.
I say the more breakdowns on polytrack, the better.
those morons spent $10M for NOTHING.

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Riders delayed Turfways second raced today due to bad surface. Couple reports from guys Ive spoke with was the track was horrible.

Getting balled up in the feet, and just not even.

Stuff is revolutionary

well,
whats really cool about this crap is that it freezes into clumps when it gets cold and then it melts into goo when it gets hot.
really adaptable stuff.

of course is some labatory in KY, it performed great when the air conditioners cooled the air to 65 degrees.
if we can just control the weather, this stuff is going to work great.


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What else can polytrack be used for? I wonder if we can all put our heads together and think of a few practical uses for millions of dollars in poly that will be ripped out in the next couple years.

put it in the fridge and have polyclump fights with it.

for those of us that dont have snow down here in the south, we can just build a polyman with it during winter.


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Very good idea repent... Maybe it works in a cat box? Maybe it would make a nice driveway in the country?

As Roger Stein says "they could be running on cotton balls and you are still gonna have some breakdowns". Its a part of the game that breaks all of our hearts :(

lol,
yeah but then you have to worry about the cats digesting that crap.
PETA would be furious!

lmao, a $10M country driveway that sticks to your tires in the summer.
they should make the idiots at KEE install the crap in their driveways just so they get to live with the joy of polycrap all year long.


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Rogers Beasley has to be thrilled with the current state of poly at Woodbine. All the trainers are thrilled. Also Cal Expo has contacted Hollywood in regards to Cushion track, they want to install it and water it down for the trotters. 12k claimers were getting over it in 107 when they watered it at Hollywood, should work perfect for the buggys at night

lol,
we should email this thread to the braniacs over at KEE.

they are going to need some place to put it after next year.



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I dont know if thats a fact. People always say horses are so smart.......... Some are smart, but they are animals. Dogs are smart, they still run out in the street and get hit by cars. Cats are smart, they still piss on the rug. Horses may be smart, but as far as being smart enough to decide when they think they will break down, nope. I think most horses put on the track to run, will run, regardless of the level of soreness they are experiencing. Thats what they are trained to do, they dont stand in the starting gate and think.......Man this right front I have is really hurting, I better not switch to this lead or Im going to breakdown.

Where are you getting your information? It's not going to take years to figure out if it's safer. They already know that it's safer. It's not rocket science to see how your horses come back every morning. Over the polytrack, the horses come back in good shape every morning. They come back and their legs are cold and tight. There's not any doubt that it's much safer. The horses are staying so much sounder that field size is already increasing quite a bit. Even at Hollywood this meet, the average field size has gone up by about one horse per race. That's already a big improvement.

The main problem with polytrack is that there are still a lot of things that they don't know about it. They really don't know that much about how it will hold up and perform under different conditions. They really don't know that much about the best way to maintain it under different conditions. They are kind of just going by trial and error right now.

Anyway, we know that polytrack does well in moderate conditions but based on the issues at Woodbine and Turfway, maybe polytrack does not hold up that well in the extreme cold. Maybe they need to tweek the ingredients a little bit for tracks where the weather is really cold.

Polytrack is still a brand new thing. I'm sure there will be some problems with it here and there but I don't think the problems will be anything that they can't deal with. Just because there will be some minor problems here and there, it hardly means that polytrack is dead. Quite to the contrary, most trainers think it's the future of racing.

Here is what a trainer at Hollywood Park told me the other day when I asked him about some of the minor problems with the track over at Hollywood. He said, "When the cushion-track at Hollywood is at its worst, it's still better than the surface at Santa Anita at it best."

So despite some of the problems they have had with polytrack, overall the owners and trainers are very happy with it. If you want to call polytrack "an experiment", the experiment has gone very well so far despite a few bumps in the road. In other words, people in the industry are more confident now in polytrack, than they were a year or two ago. You guys are totally misreading the situation if you think that polytrack has not been a big success so far. Overall, people are extremely happy with it. In fact, it has been recieved so well thus far, that more and more tracks are now planning on putting it in. As you have heard, Arlington is probably going to put it in.

Amazing...I completely agree with you...

on the first half anyway...not so much on the second...

Three days, three snappers, I'm tellin ya this is great stuff.

16 snappers this month, out of that 25% have broke down on poly. There are 3 polytracks running races now.

you're kidding me with this right? I mean you are not actually celebrating the death of 3 horses because it suits your argument about polytrack...that is so classless I don't even have words for it.

You misunderstood him. He didn't mean the horses breaking down was great stuff. He was sarcastically saying that polytrack is great stuff.

Theres a zero percent chance Oracle was saying a horse breaking down was "great stuff".

She knows that but shes trying to start trouble.
I've never celebrated a horse breaking down, they are inocent creatures.
My point was to illustrate that this stuff is not the answer we are having jammed down our throats.
Quite frankly, I think Janks had it right on ATRAB this summer when she said that TRAINERS need not be running sore horses.
Perhaps my critic can tell me(because she knows OH so much about this) how many guys in California have increased the work patterns of their horses to every 6 days instead of every 7 days(which was too much to begin with!!!). I can name two who have and it sickens me.
Thats really my point, this stuff is a crock of **** and if it all it does is make trainers think they can go out there and pound em even harder than they already do, we will end up in EVEN worse shape.
Watching horses break down makes me nauseous.
And the inference that i would celebrate this, for any cause, is sickening.
I'd maybe celebrate one of these little crooked pinheads getting a whack, but never an innocent creature. Really "classy" to make an accusation that I'm celebrating rather to ask me to clarify my intent. I'm sarcastic most of the time, and this time was no different. WHen I said this stuff is great, I was referring to the polytrack. Racing's "salvation" that doesn't seem to be doing much except lining some pockets and causing trainers to overwork horses who were overworked in the first place.

As I've said before, and having deleted the silliness, I won't have nonsense from elsewhere spilling over here... So we're ending that portion of the discussion please...

As to the matter at hand, the objectionable element of the 'three breakdowns, three days' post centered around the use of the word 'snappers'... It disgusted me and infuriated Bethani, who works hands-on with horses FOR A LIVING.

I privately and quietly asked those that used the word to refrain from using it again as I think it is callous and demonstrates to race fans a portrait of thoughtlessness. Rather than simply acknowledge the inappropriateness though, I can see this is being taken in another direction. Bethani can address Mike's thoughts herself, but I'll simply say that the germination of the issue is the word 'snappers'... IMO, using that term rendered the rest of the post indefensible as to intent.

And since she won't say it herself but was clearly challenged above as to credibility: Bethani unquestionably knows more, and will continue to know more, about racehorses, (and most other equine), their physiology, care and maintainence, than virtually anyone here.

Oracle, You have said several times that polytrack is just a con game. Do you have any evidence of that?

There is a ton of evidence that shows exactly the opposite. The horses are staying much sounder and the fields are bigger as a result. You can talk to any tainer out here and they will tell you that they see a huge difference in their horses. The horses come back every morning and their legs are cold and tight, wheras before they would come back with heat in their feet and ankles. For you to call it a con game is absurd.

Its ABSOLUTELY a con game as is has been MARKETED!!!
Its been marketed as "maintenance free" wrong!!! Its been marketed as averting catastrohic breakdowns WRONG!!
Now you can tell me in reality we should know that these thinsg arent true, but both I and Sent To Std have shown you the presentations and websites by soem of these marketers, and they are lying.
It does need maintenance, it can be screwed up, and breakdowns will continue to happen.
So, its a con game.
Anything sold with tricks and half truths or flat out lies, is a con game.

Thank paispg and Rupert for reasoned responses. And tx Kasept for reminding us about decorum.

I highly doubt that they said that there will never be a catostrophic breakdown on the surface. I don't know what their exact quote was but I'm sure that they did not guarantee that a horse would never break down.

And the surface is practically maintenance free, so I don't think that they lied abot that.

The main problem is that they may not have done enough testing in adverse weather conditions. Based on the problems at Woodbine and Turfway, I do wonder how well this product holds up in really cold weather.

Anyway, if you don't like polytrack, that is fine. That's your business. But the vast majority of owners and trainers love it. They have been very happy with it so far. The horses have been staying much sounder. That's all that really matters.

Rupert,

Do the three trianers I spoke with today count towards the "any trainer" you mentioned? I spoke with 3 today and each were less than satisfied with the clumping, and uneven surface at TWP.

I can name 5 guys who have told me its ok to train on but that they hate it to race on.
Of course they can't tell the press that.
In any case, its been marketed as maintenance free and I can post links like Stud has, and its not stopping breakdowns.
And waht about Sadlers comments last week about the foot problems?
I can show you 2-4 trainers in Cali who now zoom every 6 days instead of every 7. They think its a liscense to beat on em even harder than they were already beating on em.
It aint gonna help em in the long run.

I have said that there have been real problems at Woodbine and Turfway. I don't know if polytrack(with the current ingredients) works well in really cold weather. For all I know, it may not hold up in cold weather. They may have a serious problem. I have read about the problems you are talking about. I'm not surprised that you have talked to trainers that are concerned with the clumping at Turfway.

The only thing I'm saying is that it works well in places where the weather is moderate. Here at Hollywood Park, it is a huge improvement over what we had before.

Richie,we are getting fields of 10,12,and 14 horses out here in December.Something is going right.

And are you telling me that a better surface couldnt have been established at 1/4 the price by ripping out the cushion and putting down a new surface as well?
Magna spent 5 mill supoosedly to redo Gulf(and part of that was the cost of reconfiguration) and the horsemen rave about the surface there now.
Its a money game with this stuff.

A lot of guys out here are a little concerend that the track has gotten so fast. They weren't expecting it ot be so fast. It wasn't nearly this fast a month ago. The good news is that the track still seems to be very safe.

I read Sadler's comments. If we start hearing this same thing from several trainers, then I would start to be concerned. But I'm not going to be too concerned about one trainer. Sadler paid $800,000 for that horse. That's a lot of money to pay for a horse that is by a sire(Millenium Wind) that stands for $5,000. We don't know what Sadler's motives are. Maybe Sadler doesn't want to take the blame so he is blaming the track surface. Who knows? I'm not saying that this is the case. I have no idea. Sadler may be correct about the track. Maybe we will start to hear similar things from other trainers. But as of right now, 99% of the guys at Hollywood are happy with the surface.

I gotcha Rupert.

I dont understand why a track like Hollywood wouldnt just reinstall a conventional dirt track. I think all of these tracks jumped the gun on mass installation of synthetic surfaces. Like Oracle said.... I think they are fine to train over, I just dont care for the racing over them. What really pisses me off is the tracks cracking down on the trainers to the point they cant speak their mind. If they are going to have a polytrack they need to take the trainers opinions to heart, work together to perfect the surface. When Poly was first laid at Turfway the jockeys bitched about the kick back, they wanted it watered down....managment basically said if you dont like it dont ride here. That is the attitude from Turfway, whether the people in here want to believe it or not.

Yes, that is exactly right.

Richi you guys who use pedigree to judge a horse who has already run faster on the numbers than 99% of horses who will start from that crop just lose me.
His debut was VERY nice, and I don't think they overpaid based on that race.

I will tell you this much.With the weather SOCAL has from April -December,if you add in the cushion track(I don't know about what synthetic Anita is using,)this area is gunna have a lot (a whole lot) of healthy happy horses(and they are gunna feel like running more often, too.)We are gunna have big fields with highly competitive racing.It works here(may not work everywhere.)