Honor A.P. retired
 

:rolleyes:

Someone check on Betsy! She’s the first person I think of whenever Honor AP is mentioned. I’m sure she’s going to be disappointed.

But seriously, it would be nice to see horses like this race deep into their 4YO year or later to see what they’re truly capable of. Without any details, hope the horse is alright.

Breed to breed instead of breed to race

Lane's End Puff Release...er...Press Release

This is the roundabout way of saying he’s a one-hit wonder.
Unlucky trip or bad ride? Why he was allowed to switch off and hang nearly 15 lengths off the uncontested pace (while going wide into the first turn once again) is beyond me. The horse is bred to be a plodder, but if he had any positive going into the Derby (and there weren’t many) it was that he actually had a modicum of early speed and did well in his previous races with a stalking trip. Ironically, Smith did the exact opposite in the Shared Belief, inexplicably forcing the pace with a wide sweeping early move. To compound the problem, Smith decided to wait until the ¼ pole to set down on the horse (all the while still going wide) when the horse’s other strength has been his ability to accelerate and challenge for the lead on the far turn.

At any rate, if the author of this puff piece actually thought that the horse was "quickening" at the end, I don’t know what to tell you. The horse made up a total of 2 lengths in the stretch.
Rather than dubiously inflating the performance of the horse, most of this basically proves the performance of the rider left a lot to be desired.

And by the way, what a field it was. Hardly missed Nadal, Charlatan, Maxfield, King Guillermo, Art Collector, Thousand Words, Uncle Chuck, Swiss Skydiver…
When I think of precocity, I think of Gulch or Summer Squall or King Glorious or Cryptoclearance winning early baby races in the summer. I don’t think of a horse that wins a low-rated maiden race at Santa Anita in October.

But relatively speaking, I guess in Shirreff’s world the horse was quite precocious…
Running sluggishly for 10 furlongs, losing to a horse you already defeated, and coming out a race injured are stallion-making qualities now?
Affirmed was a breed-shaping sire? In what country?

At least the “...and more” part is tenuously accurate since the author opted not to name Indian Charlie outright…
From the sound of it, Lane’s End breeds show horses not racehorses.

Whatever happened to stamina, durability, consistency, versatility, and--dare I say--longevity?

At the very least, a classic win (or two) would have been nice…

As always, you write the best posts and it's a pleasure reading them. The King Glorious mention made it that much better.

I like the Summer Squall mention. I loved watching him as a 2 year old at Saratoga.

You could say that....I’m absolutely crushed.

Honor A.P. suffered a tendon injury in the Derby...whatever anyone else thinks, I think he was an extremely talented colt who would have been even better next year. This takes all the wind from my sales - it’s going to take awhile for me to get over this.

I do want to say - I didn’t really read the other posts because I’m not in the mood to read about what mediocre horse he was, but I did see “one hit wonder” as I glanced through the thread, and I have to say I don’t understand the general disdain for the colt. He ran 6 times, won a grade 1, finished a very good second in the San Felipe to the eventual Derby winner off of a 5 month layoff and ran 4th in the Derby while injured. That’s all...have a nice day.

Considering the importance of September in the Thoroughbred industry, this is either a great pun, a Freudian slip, or both.

Who knows how talented the horse was--as with most flash-in-the-pans, his connections did him in.

Super post, Rollo. :tro::tro::tro:

Trying to guess why Betsy used sales instead of my sail is tough, if I would have used the wrong sale you would have known I was just dumb.

Isn’t the general disdain being shown here more for that ridiculous fluff piece about him than the actual horse?

I mean, I like the horse, bet him in the Derby and found the retirement and especially that article pretty nauseating.

When deciphering your posts, it isn't the "sails" I'm worried about...it's the number of "sheets" you've let go of that is important.

It's usually 3.

Never set sail before 5 pm

I was interested in seeing him run and, I think, continue to get better.

Try not to let it get you too down. This sport is filled with bitter disappointments and crushing defeats. But the beauty (or perhaps tragedy) of it is that it only takes one instance to fall back in love with it.

I think what you’re seeing as disdain is really just a general lamentation about the state of the sport. Many owners would rather send a horse to stud than continue to race it. The general belief seems to be that the overall quality and competitiveness of races suffers as a result.

Exactly!

But Wait, There's More Honor B.S.
Some big shoes to fill there…surely the prospective candidate to inhabit the stall will also be a royally-bred, Grade 1-winning 2yo that followed up the early promise with a win in Triple Crown race and progressed enough to beat the top older horses by year’s end…

…OR will also have retired early without starting at 4 and have one undescended testicle…

Gotta take what we can get nowadays.

Living tribute? The author acts like this horse’s name was kismet or something. How many offspring from the A.P. Indy line have the “A.P.” part in there?

At any rate, the horse might have been a living tribute to A.P. Indy’s stallion career which is peppered with horses of great promise that were only ever able to win at the top level in a single race (i.e., one-hit wonder).

Almost sounds like one of those Priceline dot com deals where you get those outrageous discounts at the last minute because the hotel is desperate to fill every room.

Easy decision? With a single Grade 1 win? He’s lucky he has a “next phase of his career”…which by the way is tenuous if he doesn’t produce something in his first couple of crops. These “breeders” are fickle sorts that have no problem unloading a horse that doesn’t pan out right off the bat.

Hopefully he’ll impart some of that “late Autumn precocity” that his trainer was raving about…

Does this make any sense? If he ran as a 4yo he’d miss the breeding season, too? Was he going to be retired at 3yo already if he happened to win a Triple Crown race?

And what’s the big deal of missing 6 months with most of it coming in the early part of the year? Outside of some inflated purse races scattered across the globe, what’s the hurry to get started back in the early part of the year in the older horse division?

“Run forever”? Poor choice of words considering Honor Code ran a grand total of 11 times, missed the majority of his 3yo year with injury, and never won further than 9 furlongs.

And I’m sure most people would laugh at the horse as evidence of the theory of evolution after they took a gander at his 4 white socks…

Is the resemblance really “uncanny” when we know that the horse has at least 50% of the same genes as the sire? Oh wait, I forgot we were still trying to figure out the whole evolution thing…

More inflation. Hollywood Story, although a multiple Grade 1 winner despite only 4 total career victories (all at Hollywood Park by the way), was hardly “generating” any black type in her broodmare career before this horse. She had produced a minor stakes winner and a couple of colts that had minor placings. You had to go back to Honor A.P.’s 3rd dam to even find Grade 3/Group 3 black type, some of which was German and Italian…

Can we stop with all this whispy, cotton candy-like fluff and just write a solid, critical review of the horse’s career and stallion prospects instead of being an industry hack that shills for the big commercial breeders?

Since when was Honor Code some sort of revelation in the stud career of A.P. Indy? He basically rode a 2-race win streak over the course of a few months (skipping several important races) and ended his career with a whimper making no impression whatsoever on a 3yo Triple Crown winner over a classic distance.

Ironically, A.P. Indy himself—given his pedigree and race record--could have perhaps laid claim to being the culmination of generations of breeding had he been sound enough to run (and win) on Derby Day and had come out as a 4yo.

Oh...and two testicles would have helped, too.

On the other hand, perhaps A.P. Indy is one of the prime examples of the negative generational update that currently plagues American racing given that he was retired early (because he was “too valuable”) and couldn’t quite overcome some pesky physical issues (reportedly his feet). Personally I would vote for Fusaichi Pegasus to claim that unwelcomed prize since he was a magnanimous flop as a stud and had a much more tailored racing campaign than A.P. Indy.

“Well before” he was a “classic contender”? Is this a good thing?

No, it isn’t. It’s getting tough to stomach some of this BS.

How about “well before he was a classic winner”?

So basically the horse’s open length win in a ho-hum maiden special weight is what got the big farms foaming at the mouth for the horse as a potential stallion.

Does anyone like where this is headed?

He writes this trite like it’s some monumental accomplishment in the horse’s career. All it signified to people who enjoy horse racing is that the horse would be retired at the earliest possible moment (with the sycophant turf writers poised with pens at the ready to bolster the horse’s meager racing profile lest someone tries to see the forest for the trees).

How “uncanny” that it all came to pass…

Even better…it wasn’t the maiden special weight, it was an inflated sales tag at Saratoga. Maybe that’s why the horse didn’t run in the Travers, he’d already made his mark at Saratoga in the eyes of his “handlers”.

Bonus points for Lane’s End’s own agent for killing two birds with one stone by orchestrating the horse’s stud deal before the colt ever set foot on a racetrack.

This is progress, folks. Greater prominence of undesirable traits (white on a horse).

Not more stamina, not more seasons of racing, not more Grade 1 wins, not success on multiple surfaces or multiple distances, not success on an international stage. No ...it's more white on the legs and face that we want.

Kind of like the progress of turf writers. More fluff, more puff, more BS.

There’s that “uncanny” greater than or equal to 50% same genes thing again…

Of course, they both paled in comparison to A.P. Indy as racehorses and more than likely will do the same regarding their stallion careers.

But hey, they got a lot more white than A.P. Indy which is what most people in the industry will tell you is what they look for in top racing prospects. Of course, these guys are worried about breeding prospects, so the point is moot.

What a revelation! It’s a turf writing, evolutionary miracle!

Holy crap, did that really need to be explained? I hope—him running a major Thoroughbred breeding operation—that he has some more relevant words of wisdom.

For those still keeping score, that’s a round about way of saying people looking for a discount will go to Honor A.P.

Read: We are going to throw the kitchen sink at this horse because if he doesn’t get a big sales horse or a top 2yo in his first crop he’s going straight to another hemisphere…or Texas.

Huh? Talk about short-sighted…City Zip held his own with top older middle-distance turf horses Forbidden Apple and Sarafan in his turf debut as a 3yo before getting fried in a ridiculous speed duel in the 2001 BC Mile.

He was also a half-brother to uber-horse Ghostzapper--who could handle any distance.

Maybe this guy doesn’t have any further words of wisdom after all…

FYI, white eyes are about as desirable as 4 white socks. Usually signifies a high-strung temperament.

I don’t know about any generational shifts actually taking place but certainly this has been the equivalent of a “gastrointestinal shift”. If only the author had just put the letters “B.S.” in the headline we could have been forewarned.

Every bloated puff piece has to start somewhere.

Infinity pies

City Zip just had a horse win the Whitney and Hollywood Gold Cup, why highlight 8.5 furlong turf winners.

Probably because City Zip passed away a few years ago and no longer generates money for the farm. Considering that a 6-figure sales price and a lopsided maiden win is what stamped Honor A.P. as a stallion prospect in Lane's End eyes, a cynic might figure these guys don't really follow top level racing to any great degree (so long as the stallion prospects get black type from somewhere).

On top of that, I doubt Farish wants to draw attention to Improbable lest he inadvertently boosts the horse's stallion profile.

Improbable ironically is a Lane's End product (to use the parlance of our time) having been bred by a Lane's End affiliate and being by City Zip out of an A.P. Indy mare. Farish himself campaigned the second dam. But alas, Lane's End couldn't see the potential in Improbable and chucked him out as a weanling for $110K (Lane's End was the consignor).

Now the horse is untouchable as a potential stallion replacement for City Zip at Lane's End because he's owned by arch rival Winstar Farm.

This is why you're one of the best posters on this board. That is some great knowledge right there. I don't follow breeding close enough to have even thought about putting those dots together.

The difference in handling for those horses is sort of interesting. I'm not sure if this qualifies as irony but maybe it's noteworthy that Improbable was another "derby contender" who finished a disappointing fourth in the big race. Instead of being retired to stud early as a one-shot Grade 1 winner, Improbable came back for a very strong 4YO campaign and has, I assume, drastically increased his stud value. This year so far, he's got two more Grade 1 wins, $610,000 in earnings, and a very good shot at another Grade 1 win and significant earnings at Breeders Cup.

Of course, Improbable didn't have any injuries that I'm aware of and that changes things...but still interesting to me.

Perhaps..as a huge fan of the horse, I love reading the articles as they make me feel better. I don’t view them with the cynicism that so many do. Let me make it clear - I don’t care if not everyone likes the horse; opinions make horse racing. What bothers me - not here so much as on board I visit more often is the need to rip apart his record, trash his agility, and pretty much display incredible ignorance about his races. I get it, he was 2 for 6..but Andy always says that wins are overrated to a degree. Also, you have to look at context. HAP ran very well in his debut, showed more promise breaking his maiden and then, off a 5 month layoff and a huge class jump, ran extremely well in the San Felipe. He took a step forward in the SA Derby. I think the Shared Belief turned many permanently against him, but he was severely undertrained for the race. As to the Derby, he ran even better than was first thought as he was on good legs. 6 starts - I think Honor A.P. accomplished a great deal, and I thought he was going to be even better later on and into next year.

If people want to dissect articles, go ahead - they have the right. I don’t think Bill Farish said anything wrong, certainly not to be poked fun of. But, no big deal - I’m not forced to read it.

Do I think HAP will be a good sire? I don’t know. His own sire, who I was deeply invested in since I loved him as a racehorse and since he’s Indy’s last big son at stud, has been promising but not and cold. That said, the fact that he’s an outcross to Mr. Prospector mares should help. I think Honor A.P. is a gorgeous horse and very talented - his retirement has been like a punch in the gut, but hopefully he will be a good sire.

Oh I know...and I agree; there’s always a promising horse around the corner. I love horses, that’s why I’m into the sport - it’s not because I’m a gambler, lol. It’s a hard sport to love because horses break your heart, but they’re the best...

I share that disdain, believe me. Racing has become primarily an avenue for breeding, sigh. In this case, though, even a minor tendon injury isn’t good. HAP’s owner stated outright that the colt would race next year - but what can you do? Fate decided it wasn’t to be. I have no interest in seeing them try and push the colt to make it back - he probably would never be the same, anyway. Some of the comments I’ve seen have been frankly horrifying. I get people being upset about premature retirements..but save that for when perfectly healthy horses like Bernardini are retired. That still ticks me off. Don’t be upset because owners want to care for the horse they love.

More realistically, the horse was severely overtrained for the Kentucky Derby.

Presumably taking his cue from Mike Smith's inane guidance, Shirreffs had the horse perform more workouts than normal leading up to the Derby, as he breezed only a week after the Shared Belief. He then put in 3 workouts with a jockey up, over increasing distances, on tightened surfaces different from what the horse was training over in the mornings (each time he breezed a few minutes prior to the first race in the afternoons), with overzealous gallop outs. That's a ripe formula for "squeezing the lemon dry" as they say.

Never mind the horse being over-the-top, it was probably also his undoing as far as his subsequent leg injury.

Outside of Mike Smith's typical straw-clutching post-race commentary, not sure where the presumption originated that John Shirreffs forgot to train Honor A.P. for the Shared Belief. As you said, wins aren't everything and most people wouldn't have been surprised to see Shirreffs use the Shared Belief strictly for what it was---a prep race.

At any rate, Honor A.P. does have Mr. Prospector within 4 generations (Honor Code's 2nd dam is by Mr. P). That carefully worded blurb in the Lane's End press release about his dam being free of Mr. Prospector was probably another clever ploy to confuse potential clients that somehow breeding to him would avoid inbreeding to Mr. Prospector, which is not the case.

Truth be told, I'm not sure why one would be scared of inbreeding to Mr. Prospector anyways. This year alone, 4 of the top 5 3yo colts (Tiz The Law, Maxfield, Nadal, Charlatan) are inbred to Mr. Prospector. Now 3 of those are on the sidelines which presumably is why inbreeding to Mr. Prospector is frowned upon (unsoundness), but the genesis of those injuries aren't necessarily solely genetic (i.e. supertrainers burn through horses of all shapes and sizes).

Certainly I'd much rather have Mr. Prospector influencing my horse's pedigree than I would have Mike Smith influencing its training...

Well, I thought those workouts were necessary because John had undertrained Honor A.P. for the Shared Belief ...he was working on behavioral issues. Personally, I expected him to win easily if he was at 80% or so, as he was for the San Felipe. Problem is, he got slammed by Cezanne at the start and ran erratically thereafter. Most racing media actually didn’t jump off the bandwagon - some did, but it was primarily fans on boards who thought the SB proved he was mediocre. I saw those pre-SB workouts - I don’t think he looked good at all - dull, frankly. So, I thought he definitely needed those faster workouts at DM. It turns out HAP got injured at the start of the Derby, probably in the NY Traffic incident, so we’ll never know if he was over the top. I didn’t think so - I thought he looked great in the week before the Derby.

Ugh, good point about HC’s second dam being by Mr. P - how did I not even think of that, lol? Still, Mr. P inbreeding for an HAP foal would be at least a few generations away on both sire and dam’s sides given that we are referring to his grandsons as broodmare sire (Distorted Humor, Speightstown, etc...) so....not that closer!

Why does it bother you that others see him as not as much as you do? It doesn't change your opinion so just let it roll off. Andy calls me an idiot all the time for my opinions and yet, none of them have changed because he disagrees.

It doesn’t bother me, King...I’ve posted on sports boards for years; if you can’t deal with various opinions, you really shouldn’t be posting in a place where people are naturally doing to disagree. My biggest issue in this case is that I’ve seen people say things about Honor A.P. that just weren’t true, like that he was a stone closer (and that’s why he’d have a bad trip in the Derby) and had no speed. I never really debated anyone’s opinion about the colt since opinions are just that .. unless they passed off opinions as fact (as in the above example).