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-   -   9/4 (PRX): Smarty Jones, Greenwood Cup, Turf Monster (G3's), LeVine (http://www.derbytrail.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63033)

Kasept 09-01-2017 12:57 PM
9/4 (PRX): Smarty Jones, Greenwood Cup, Turf Monster (G3's), LeVine
 

RolloTomasi 09-01-2017 11:24 PM
The Smarty Jones is a fairly competitive race from the looks of it.

10 pnt move up 09-01-2017 11:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RolloTomasi (Post 1099002)
The Smarty Jones is a fairly competitive race from the looks of it.
It amazes me how much money is out there to be gobbled up by 2nd, or even 3rd tier 3year olds...

RolloTomasi 09-01-2017 11:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up (Post 1099003)
It amazes me how much money is out there to be gobbled up by 2nd, or even 3rd tier 3year olds...
Wow, didn't even notice the purse.

The top 2 here might take a stab at the $1.25 Pennsylvania Derby next. The also-rans can run for a mere $400K in the Oklahoma Derby the same weekend.

ateamstupid 09-04-2017 03:51 PM
That Jim Dandy try sure sapped Pavel forever.

cakes44 09-04-2017 04:00 PM
Moving up the 3-year-old charts fast...especially with a bunch of them sucking @ss right now.

10 pnt move up 09-04-2017 04:01 PM
socal dirt horse on the road on the east coast....7/2. thx all

RolloTomasi 09-04-2017 05:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ateamstupid (Post 1099244)
That Jim Dandy try sure sapped Pavel forever.
More after-the-fact posting. Where were you before the race? This board would benefit from some more diverse pre-race discussion.

At any rate, who knew a drop from Grade 1 to Grade 3 would be benefit an inexperienced horse?

ateamstupid 09-04-2017 05:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RolloTomasi (Post 1099270)
More after-the-fact posting. Where were you before the race? This board would benefit from some more diverse pre-race discussion.

At any rate, who knew a drop from Grade 1 to Grade 3 would be benefit an inexperienced horse?
:rolleyes: I must've missed when they made the Jim Dandy a Grade 1. And yeah, what a huge drop in class this was, considering how well the Jim Dandy horses came back to run in the Travers.

You're the one who wrote off the horse's entire career because they decided to take a shot with him, I told you you were being ridiculous. That was before the race, wasn't it? God forbid you eat a little crow. Best to just go on making excuses for your smug, unfounded trashing of his connections.

RolloTomasi 09-04-2017 06:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ateamstupid (Post 1099272)
And yeah, what a huge drop in class this was, considering how well the Jim Dandy horses came back to run in the Travers.
Nice try, but seeing how Pavel ran off the board in the Jim Dandy and won this race by open lengths, what does that tell you about the field today (if you couldn't tell from the past performances)?

Quote:
You're the one who wrote off the horse's entire career because they decided to take a shot with him, I told you you were being ridiculous.
You're just putting words into my mouth. I suggested he ought to have pointed for something like the El Cajon at Del Mar. Sure enough, they regrouped and went for a second tier stakes. Good for them, logical move.

Funny enough, you laughed at the El Cajon, a race that drew Grade 1 winners and classic placed horses with the winner registering a triple digit Beyer.

Of course, I guess there's always the possibility that the plan all along was to win a sprint debut late in the season, run off the board in the Jim Dandy next out, and then put it all together in the Smarty Jones at Parx.

Quote:
That was before the race, wasn't it?
You've got to be kidding. Your last post on Pavel was over a month ago, but you're gonna suggest it was in reference to a start in the Smarty Jones?

Quote:
God forbid you eat a little crow.
Why would I eat crow? I was singing the horse's praises in terms of talent all along. But as I said before, this is a long-term game and just because Pavel recovered from a botched and overreaching try in the Jim Dandy to win a Grade 3 at Parx doesn't mean it was the right move to run at Saratoga nor that he'll be handled more conservatively in the future. He'll obviously now knock heads with West Coast in the Pennsylvania Derby next and regardless of performance will probably show up in the BC Classic.

If I eat crow about anything its for saying the Jim Dandy was a Grade 1 after drawing two classic winners.

Quote:
Best to just go on making excuses for your smug, unfounded trashing of his connections.
Unfounded?

Bad Read Sanchez, Ontology, Know More, Wake Up Nick, Ralis, Found Money, Sam's Ace, Frensham, B Squared, Land Over Sea, Jimmy Bouncer, Indexical, Gomo, Bond Holder, He's Had Enough, The Humancomplaint, Boxer des Rues, Rum Point, Electric Eddie, Concave, Eddie's First, Morning Coffee, Blabimir, You Missed It,...

ateamstupid 09-04-2017 07:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RolloTomasi (Post 1099279)
Nice try, but seeing how Pavel ran off the board in the Jim Dandy and won this race by open lengths, what does that tell you about the field today (if you couldn't tell from the past performances)?


You're just putting words into my mouth. I suggested he ought to have pointed for something like the El Cajon at Del Mar. Sure enough, they regrouped and went for a second tier stakes. Good for them, logical move.

Funny enough, you laughed at the El Cajon, a race that drew Grade 1 winners and classic placed horses with the winner registering a triple digit Beyer.

Of course, I guess there's always the possibility that the plan all along was to win a sprint debut late in the season, run off the board in the Jim Dandy next out, and then put it all together in the Smarty Jones at Parx.


You've got to be kidding. Your last post on Pavel was over a month ago, but you're gonna suggest it was in reference to a start in the Smarty Jones?


Why would I eat crow? I was singing the horse's praises in terms of talent all along. But as I said before, this is a long-term game and just because Pavel recovered from a botched and overreaching try in the Jim Dandy to win a Grade 3 at Parx doesn't mean it was the right move to run at Saratoga nor that he'll be handled more conservatively in the future. He'll obviously now knock heads with West Coast in the Pennsylvania Derby next and regardless of performance will probably show up in the BC Classic.

If I eat crow about anything its for saying the Jim Dandy was a Grade 1 after drawing two classic winners.


Unfounded?

Bad Read Sanchez, Ontology, Know More, Wake Up Nick, Ralis, Found Money, Sam's Ace, Frensham, B Squared, Land Over Sea, Jimmy Bouncer, Indexical, Gomo, Bond Holder, He's Had Enough, The Humancomplaint, Boxer des Rues, Rum Point, Electric Eddie, Concave, Eddie's First, Morning Coffee, Blabimir, You Missed It,...
Yeah all those superstars in any other hands. Good grief. I've never seen someone put more effort into not admitting they were wrong. Hats off.

RolloTomasi 09-04-2017 07:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ateamstupid (Post 1099289)
Yeah all those superstars in any other hands. Good grief. I've never seen someone put more effort into not admitting they were wrong. Hats off.
Again...what was I wrong about?

The Jim Dandy remains a stupid spot to run the horse. He was unsuccessful and it did nothing for him. He would have been in the Travers otherwise (then I would have eaten crow). Yeah, he won a second tier race at Parx today, but no one was disputing that the horse was talented.

And Reddam has a lot of options for the horse now that he has Irap waiting for the Penn Derby. Who knows? Maybe the Arc is in the offing for Pavel.

At any rate, you clearly are still smarting from the Abel Tasman discussion, which is the only reason you chimed in on my Pavel/Jim Dandy post in the first place. Glad your grudge got you to post again after a couple weeks absence.

Hopefully Pavel is able to run a few more times lest you disappear completely.

ateamstupid 09-04-2017 08:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RolloTomasi (Post 1099292)
Again...what was I wrong about?

The Jim Dandy remains a stupid spot to run the horse. He was unsuccessful and it did nothing for him. He would have been in the Travers otherwise (then I would have eaten crow). Yeah, he won a second tier race at Parx today, but no one was disputing that the horse was talented.

And Reddam has a lot of options for the horse now that he has Irap waiting for the Penn Derby. Who knows? Maybe the Arc is in the offing for Pavel.

At any rate, you clearly are still smarting from the Abel Tasman discussion, which is the only reason you chimed in on my Pavel/Jim Dandy post in the first place. Glad your grudge got you to post again after a couple weeks absence.

Hopefully Pavel is able to run a few more times lest you disappear completely.
Yeah I'm still smarting. That's how much you mean to me. The bottom line is, you said running in the Jim Dandy would ruin the horse, and he came right back and won a $350,000 race in a canter. Now you're putting out more smugness about running him in the Arc, because you're pissed off that the horse isn't crippled from running in the Jim Dandy. Guess they didn't hear that the El Cajon is the natural springboard to a Hall of Fame plaque.

declansharbor 09-04-2017 08:12 PM
After seeing Pavel draw off like that today, I'm sure that has Doug O'Neill drawing up a contingency plan for Irap if he's serious about keeping him and Pavel from racing against each other prior to the BCC. The Awesome Again was mentioned, pretty logical. O'Neill's bar seems to be holding pocket Queens preflop! Can't wait to see how the BCC unfolds -- going to be one HELL of a wagering event.

RolloTomasi 09-04-2017 09:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ateamstupid (Post 1099296)
The bottom line is, you said running in the Jim Dandy would ruin the horse, and he came right back and won a $350,000 race in a canter.
The bottom line is I said the Jim Dandy was a terrible race for the colt's second start and that it potentially could derail a promising career. Then I suggested that the horse should have been in a lesser race. That's exactly what the Smarty Jones was. None of your blustering is going to cover up the fact that (a) he tanked in the Jim Dandy and (b) he indeed found winning form in a lesser race.

To hear you tell it ("he almost beat two classic winners!") he should have been in the Travers.

Quote:
Now you're putting out more smugness about running him in the Arc, because you're pissed off that the horse isn't crippled from running in the Jim Dandy.
Oh, I'm so sorry you don't like sarcasm. I suppose the Arc joke was a little heavy handed. I guess if I said the Jockey Club Gold Cup was a logical spot after winning a Parx Grade 3 you would have been all right with it.

As far as the wishing the horse ill-health, that's pretty pathetic on your part, but not surprising. You keep reading into my posts what you want to read. I look forward to some more unsolicited post-race discussions with you.

ateamstupid 09-04-2017 09:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RolloTomasi (Post 1099300)
The bottom line is I said the Jim Dandy was a terrible race for the colt's second start and that it potentially could derail a promising career. Then I suggested that the horse should have been in a lesser race. That's exactly what the Smarty Jones was. None of your blustering is going to cover up the fact that (a) he tanked in the Jim Dandy and (b) he indeed found winning form in a lesser race.

To hear you tell it ("he almost beat two classic winners!") he should have been in the Travers.


Oh, I'm so sorry you don't like sarcasm. I suppose the Arc joke was a little heavy handed. I guess if I said the Jockey Club Gold Cup was a logical spot after winning a Parx Grade 3 you would have been all right with it.

As far as the wishing the horse ill-health, that's pretty pathetic on your part, but not surprising. You keep reading into my posts what you want to read. I look forward to some more unsolicited post-race discussions with you.
Sorry if I don't think it's worth seriously engaging with someone who thinks Bad Read Sanchez and B Squared would've been superstars if not for their owner, or that the El Cajon is a race worth pointing to with a top-class 3-year-old, or that Mike Smith doesn't know what he's doing because he narrowly beat a "four-horse Delaware stakes winner" who then came back to destroy the field in the Alabama. I look forward to more smugness and total unwillingness to consider other viewpoints, even when you're shown to be a total nitwit pretending to know more than some of the most successful people in racing. Really makes for great discourse.

taxicab 09-04-2017 09:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RolloTomasi (Post 1099270)
This board would benefit from some more diverse pre-race discussion.
I do some pre-race discussion...........but I'm usually wrong about 98% of the time. :)

taxicab 09-04-2017 10:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up (Post 1099249)
socal dirt horse on the road on the east coast....7/2. thx all
That is kind of amazing how it seems to shake out.

taxicab 09-04-2017 10:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by declansharbor (Post 1099297)
After seeing Pavel draw off like that today, I'm sure that has Doug O'Neill drawing up a contingency plan for Irap if he's serious about keeping him and Pavel from racing against each other prior to the BCC. The Awesome Again was mentioned, pretty logical. O'Neill's bar seems to be holding pocket Queens preflop! Can't wait to see how the BCC unfolds -- going to be one HELL of a wagering event.
Irap seems very fond of the middle portion of the country.......the Oklahoma Derby on 9/24 is worth 400k.
Of course the Pa. Derby seems to be right in Irap's wheelhouse.........that might be the ticket.
Pavel......beats me,he probably needs a race exactly one month from now.
I suppose Santa Anita..............But Baffert is going to have a bunch of monsters hanging around that meet.

RolloTomasi 09-04-2017 10:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ateamstupid (Post 1099301)
Sorry if I don't think it's worth seriously engaging with someone who thinks Bad Read Sanchez and B Squared would've been superstars if not for their owner
Oh, so Pavel's a superstar now after winning a Parx Grade 3? Never mind that I never said that any of the horses I listed were superstars, but any person who can read a past performance (even a completely rage-blinded cretin) can see that each of those horses' careers were completely derailed by bad management. Maidens in stakes, Grade 1 comebacks for non-stakes winners, etc. In many cases, the ends of those careers were not pretty.

Quote:
or that the El Cajon is a race worth pointing to with a top-class 3-year-old
I guess you ignored all the Grade 1 winners that came out of that race that I listed in last months unsolicited post-race discussion. Oh, and you didn't notice that the classic-placed colt Battle of Midway romped over Santa Anita Derby winner Gormley and Grade 1 winner Klimt in this year's edition.

Quote:
or that Mike Smith doesn't know what he's doing because he narrowly beat a "four-horse Delaware stakes winner" who then came back to destroy the field in the Alabama.
More hyperbole. Smith rode a bad race, that's it. Nothing against his entire career. Apparently, you don't take criticism (even if it isn't directed at you) very well.

Oh, and as for Elate, yeah, I can't believe she won the Alabama with Abel Tasman noticeably absent. Shocking turn of events that she was able to beat a Grade 1 turf filly and a Grade 1 Polytrack filly.

Quote:
I look forward to more smugness and total unwillingness to consider other viewpoints
No, I considered your narrow viewpoint regarding the CCA Oaks, and I picked it apart. That's what a response with some substance entails. Not the silly name-calling and childish "Gotcha!" hit-and-runs that you specialize in.

Quote:
even when you're shown to be a total nitwit pretending to know more than some of the most successful people in racing.
You still don't realize that Pavel was an also-ran in the Jim Dandy. Well, at least you knew it wasn't a Grade 1.

And yet, he's already achieved superstar status in your "viewpoint".

Quote:
Really makes for great discourse.
Only if its post-race.

RolloTomasi 09-04-2017 10:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by taxicab (Post 1099302)
I do some pre-race discussion...........but I'm usually wrong about 98% of the time. :)
Keep your chin up...some people only do post-race discussion.......and are still wrong 98% of the time.

ateamstupid 09-04-2017 11:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RolloTomasi (Post 1099308)
Keep your chin up...some people only do post-race discussion.......and are still wrong 98% of the time.
You're an idiot, dude. I've been posting picks and plays on this site for over a decade. The next time I see you put a play in the Selections forum will be the first one. Internet yappers who know everything and refuse to admit when they're wrong are a dime a dozen. At least some of them are funny. You're a humorless scold who does nothing but slip on banana peels with every one of your snarky takes.

RolloTomasi 09-04-2017 11:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ateamstupid (Post 1099311)
You're an idiot, dude. I've been posting picks and plays on this site for over a decade. The next time I see you put a play in the Selections forum will be the first one. Internet yappers who know everything and refuse to admit when they're wrong are a dime a dozen. At least some of them are funny. You're a humorless scold who does nothing but slip on banana peels with every one of your snarky takes.
Yeah, I figured you'd ignore my response to your own post.

At least after I posted that list of Reddam wastage you dropped the BS "unfounded" accusation you leveled at me. Small victories...

ateamstupid 09-04-2017 11:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RolloTomasi (Post 1099312)
Yeah, I figured you'd ignore my response to your own post.

At least after I posted that list of Reddam wastage you dropped the BS "unfounded" accusation you leveled at me. Small victories...
You posted a bunch of mid-level allowance horses that you and only you would ever think could've been something great, as if that somehow mitigates the level of success Reddam has had that 99% of owners could never dream of. But sure, take that "small victory." God knows you need it.

freddymo 09-05-2017 01:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ateamstupid (Post 1099313)
You posted a bunch of mid-level allowance horses that you and only you would ever think could've been something great, as if that somehow mitigates the level of success Reddam has had that 99% of owners could never dream of. But sure, take that "small victory." God knows you need it.
Rollo is typically right, sure he has a slant but we all do. You will not find a person with better historical knowledge. He is extremely sharp and helpful if you listen. Probably not a great idea to discount him or his thoughts. I have been on the idiotic side of many a conversation with him trust me I know. That said while I can disagree with his opinions on horses I never doubt the facts, he doesnt provide false narratives. Just my 2 cents

ateamstupid 09-05-2017 02:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by freddymo (Post 1099319)
Rollo is typically right, sure he has a slant but we all do. You will not find a person with better historical knowledge. He is extremely sharp and helpful if you listen. Probably not a great idea to discount him or his thoughts. I have been on the idiotic side of many a conversation with him trust me I know. That said while I can disagree with his opinions on horses I never doubt the facts, he doesnt provide false narratives. Just my 2 cents
Thanks for posting that letter of recommendation, really compelling stuff, but maybe you'd like to comment on the discussion at hand, whether or not Paul Reddam is a butcher worthy of derision for taking a shot in a $600,000 five-horse race with a talented 3-year-old?

10 pnt move up 09-05-2017 02:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ateamstupid (Post 1099321)
Thanks for posting that letter of recommendation, really compelling stuff, but maybe you'd like to comment on the discussion at hand, whether or not Paul Reddam is a butcher worthy of derision for taking a shot in a $600,000 five-horse race with a talented 3-year-old?
The only time you seem to post is if someone post a critical thought about someone in the industry. Your the board apologist it seems.

The placement of the Reddam horses has been odd, and certainly were not the only ones to say that it may do more harm than good for the overall stock that they run.

ateamstupid 09-05-2017 03:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up (Post 1099323)
The only time you seem to post is if someone post a critical thought about someone in the industry. Your the board apologist it seems.

The placement of the Reddam horses has been odd, and certainly were not the only ones to say that it may do more harm than good for the overall stock that they run.
No. I'm in favor of trainers running their horses and taking shots, and I thought this was a ridiculous spot to criticize, much less speculate that it would ruin the horse's career. And once again, I've been here for over a decade, but because I don't want to say Irad Ortiz is trying to injure people or Paul Reddam is a butcher, I'm a board apologist. OK.

King Glorious 09-05-2017 09:27 PM
My feeling has always been that the class and ability of the horses determines if it's a strong race or not. Not the grade. I've also learned that old rules aren't as important anymore. It used to be that if you had only two preps for the Derby, you couldn't win. If you never started as a 2yp, you couldn't win. Probably a few more I'm forgetting. While I understand where Rollo was going in saying that Pavel shouldn't have been in the Dandy, I think he's looking at it too traditionally. By that, I mean that we used to always be able to count on the bigger races having the best of the crop. The best of the crop were usually extremely battle tested and proven by this point in the year. But that's rarely the case these days. In my opinion, the only disadvantage Pavel had in that race was experience. It couldn't be said with great confidence that he was not on their talent level. So why not take a shot? I don't think it makes much sense to worry about long term effects. You get 12 races out of them these days and you're considered to have had a long career. So go for it. He lost. So what. It happens. He wasn't embarrassed and it didn't lessen his chances of winning this or being a major factor in the Penn Derby if they chose to go that route. It wasn't like he was facing Java Gold, Alysheba, Lost Code, Bet Twice, Gulch, and Cryptoclearance in the Dandy.

freddymo 09-06-2017 06:51 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ateamstupid (Post 1099321)
Thanks for posting that letter of recommendation, really compelling stuff, but maybe you'd like to comment on the discussion at hand, whether or not Paul Reddam is a butcher worthy of derision for taking a shot in a $600,000 five-horse race with a talented 3-year-old?
I dont like seeing horses ruined and rushed that said watching them train for 8 weeks and run by appointment is worse. The whole bounce crap is boorish I dont remotely understand its popularity among player and trainers. I do like when horses take shots, specifically as it refers to Reddam, his program is to run horses and if they fail get hurt or stink he gets new ones. On one hand I see Rollo's point, make more conservative decisions with the ones you have and you wont have to keep buying new stock. That's fair but Team ONiel is always on the hunt for new stock and this is Reddam's hobby, and ruining horses and being successful dont necessarily have to be independent of each other(unless you are a horse)

NTamm1215 09-06-2017 07:16 AM
I don't think Pavel running in the Jim Dandy was some horrific idea, and it clearly did not do him any harm.

It's essential when analyzing his last two races to note that he raced against the grain of a very strong inside bias on July 29. The horses who enjoyed inside trips on that card have come back to flop including Coal Front, Rectify, Mojovation, Lionite, Good Samaritan and Always Dreaming.

I think Pavel is a nice horse and prefer, in this day and age, connections trying something ambitious.

10 pnt move up 09-06-2017 09:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NTamm1215 (Post 1099340)
I don't think Pavel running in the Jim Dandy was some horrific idea, and it clearly did not do him any harm.

It's essential when analyzing his last two races to note that he raced against the grain of a very strong inside bias on July 29. The horses who enjoyed inside trips on that card have come back to flop including Coal Front, Rectify, Mojovation, Lionite, Good Samaritan and Always Dreaming.

I think Pavel is a nice horse and prefer, in this day and age, connections trying something ambitious.
every day was inside pretty much at saratoga....and because they did not want the turf horses to feel left out they juiced up those races as well inside.


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