Should Songbird retire?
 

The question was posed to her rider mere seconds after the race by Maggie Wolfendale of the NYRA.

I thought the question on the surface is a bit absurd, and to ask her rider seconds after a loss seems odd since he neither trains nor owns the horse.

I don't know if its our culture or what but its horse racing, they lose sometimes. Train them back up and run again.

Well... it depends. Shes a solid graded stakes horse. But when psychopaths go around twitter calling her an all time great and stuff then you have to take the L like a man. She will never beat FU again. Songbird IMO just hasn't moved forward from 3-4. Nothing wrong with that and i am sure they can find spots away from FU, Stellar Wind, Vale Dori and Elate. Because right now, she cant beat any of them.
Whats wrong with being good? Historically just off the top of my head shes not better then Zenyatta, Rachel, Silverbulletday, Royal Delta, Beholder.....So when people say best ever or make up lies like Alabama it's just a lot of nonsense.

u didnt answer the question

No she shouldn't. They can cash checks running 2nd to the horses I mentioned or find softer spots.

No she shouldn't but all the 3 year old dirt males should.

They asked Lucien Lauren that same question after the Wood. :zz:

God, what a truly stupid question.

Not that I blame them, but witness the near instantaneous backlash the 3yo divisions leaders suffered once the classic winners and Haskell runners all tanked in the Travers:

Battle of Midway, classic-placed and a Haskell also-ran, along with fellow Grade 1 winners Gormley and Klimt, all dropped down to listed stakes company at Del Mar for the Shared Belief Stakes and none went off favored. The favorite, Gate Del Oro, had form similar to Fayeq (i.e., a maiden and allowance win) who was long odds in the Travers and was eased across the line.

Battle of Midway, adding blinkers and getting off at over 3-1, romped home by over 6 lengths.

I think the distance, and the blinkers helped, was a much easier field but he also ran his best race to date in my mind. He was always a talented horse, I heard about him a while back as a two year old.

Why would she retire ?
 

She ran awesome today. No shame in getting beat a neck to that mare on her third cross country trip in as many tries. She is awesome.

I was surprised he landed in this spot. He had a bullet work on the turf earlier in the meet and, being by Smart Strike, looked primed for his turf debut in the Del Mar Derby.

However, perhaps machinations from the owners (Winstar, Don Alberto) probably rerouted him for another go at major score on the dirt. My guess is that today's race was just a dry run for the $1 million Pennsylvania Derby in 4 weeks.

They can always wait for the Hollywood Derby on the grass later in the year if he doesn't get it done on the main.

Yep she is awesome in today's racing vernacular. Love the shipping innuendo as to some how suggest that furthers her awesomeness. You know who is really awesome? Her connections who have never ducked a race and campaigned her in the best races across the country, this is the only thing "awesome" about SongBird.

What is her record Freddy ? How many grade I wins? She got beat a neck. She is awesome. You are a miserable bastid who can't see greatness. I guess Beholder isn't great to be so pressed by such a mediocre filly ...right ? Lady Eli isn't great either because she lost 2 close ones. Unbridled Forever must suck too since she couldn't get by in the distaff right , Freddy? Oh yeah and bid got beat in the Belmont, he's not much. Arrogate just lost twice... he's no longer awesome?
Go back to shooting rats down by the river.

P.S. it's not a vernacular it's a ****ing Derby

This kinda sounds silly Freddy....her record is pretty damn good, as race horses go. Some people act like she has not done a thing.

:tro::tro:

Freddy likes to surf on rickety floor boards. His utter dismissal of the fact that Songbird has shipped 3 times this year sounds pathetically contrarian. When Zenyatta was going strong the refrain was that she never shipped for a showdown such as yesterday's Personal Ensign. Conveniently in Songbird's case its a non-issue.

So unless Freddy has had a change of heart regarding Big Z, he sounds completely disingenuous here.

Songbird would have wiped clean of the Ballerina yesterday, and all would be good in the world today...

She was 2-5, loped along on the easiest of leads and still got tagged. There was nothing "awesome" about her performance. But this is who she is. She's a nice filly who always shows up, no matter the track, and runs average to below-average races for the Grade I level. She is entirely dependent on who she's facing and she lost to a clearly better horse yesterday, so now she's lost a step? Come on. She's good for the game and her connections have been great about showcasing her across the country, but the idea that she is or ever was some invincible Hall of Fame-caliber filly is just absurd.

No she shouldn't these horses aren't machines. Plus, I am sure if she saw the horse on her outside she would of fought back.

Saratoga and Del Mar for being the premiere meets also claims a lot of champions losing there.

I mean should Paradise Woods retire after her flop today?

Being objective that's all. I have watched as you have at least 10 fillies that would drown her even in her finest effort(distaff '16). The connections are awesome the filly was born in the right year. I save awesome for true fast greats not circumstantial compilers. She has run exactly 2 outstanding races in he super career

From Bloodhorse/Haskins

I will save AWESOME for this:
Fantasy Stakes – Biggest margin in the history of the race (8 ¾ lengths).

Kentucky Oaks – Biggest margin in the history of the race (20 ¼ lengths).

Preakness – First filly to win the Preakness in 85 years and the first horse in history to win from post 13.

Mother Goose – Biggest margin in the history of the race (19 ¼ lengths), previously held by Ruffian, and ran the fastest time in the history of the race (1:46 1/5).

Haskell – To repeat, second-biggest margin in the history of the race (six lengths), and second-fastest time (1:47 1/5) in the history of the race by one fifth of a second, and two fifths of a second off the track record set by Spend a Buck 24 years earlier.

Woodward – First filly in history to win the Woodward, and ran the fastest time since the race was moved to Saratoga.

Even winning the Woodward by a head and the Preakness by one length, Rachel’s average margin of victory in 2009 was an astounding 8 ¼ lengths.

EXACTLY. She obviously was much better at 2 and 3 or better said further along then her counterparts then at 4 and that isnt a knock its just reality. Even at her very best in both BC races she has NEVER run an all time great race. Frankly its a silly conversation anybody who is objective realizes she has never been much more then slightly above average G1 talent, effectively Ashado lite, a filly born in the right year where her competition was below typical average. I guess those calls/posts/tweets for her to face open male competition are mute now, that's a good thing. She would get destroyed by Diversify whom isnt a Graded stakes winner too date, She might lose by a pole. The great fillies that SB is allegedly on par would would swallow him for breakfast.

Forever Unbridled is OK she ran 2+ lengths further then SB as SB meandered uncontested and STILL she couldnt draw off. Why simply because she isnt that fast. FU runs by appt. only obviously has to have some soundness issues, if you watched her last 1/4 it was painful, and she still got to SB at 10f's she would have won by 6...Its Unbridled Forever for goodness sake not Personal Ensign Inside Information Azeri etc

have a heart folks...You really think she is a faster filly then Ashado who was another born in right year greatest evah

At 2:
Won Spinaway S. (G1), Demoiselle S. (G2), Schuylerville S. (G2)
2nd Breeders' Cup Juvenile Fillies (G1)
3rd Frizette S. (G1)
At 3:
Won Breeders' Cup Distaff (G1), Coaching Club American Oaks (G1), Kentucky Oaks (G1), Fair Grounds Oaks (G2), Cotillion H. (G2)
2nd Mother Goose S. (G1), Ashland S. (G1)
3rd Alabama S. (G1)

At 4:
Won Ogden Phipps H. (G1), Go For Wand H. (G1), Beldame S. (G1)
2nd Pimlico Distaff H. (G3)
3rd Breeders' Cup Distaff (G1)

Rachel was awesome. And her connections were smart enough to avoid Zenyatta blowing by her.

Gotcha.. I think you are right about the Songbird photo as well.

"So you say there's a race
Of men in the trees
You're for tough legislation
Thanks for posting
I wait all night for posts like these"

Donald Fagen

Donald Fagen must look back and say " how could we be that good back then and suck so badly now?" Though at halftime of the show i painfully sat through at Mohegan, I stumbled onto a roulette wheel that liked my 26 black / 28 black.

So.....
If they ran the BC Distaff in a month,Songbird would be no better than the third choice........might even check in as the fifth choice.
The times they are a changing.
That's the beauty of horse racing,just about everything is settled on the track.
Songbird is going to have to reestablish herself in the publics eyes.
I have no clue if she's over the top,or if Hollendorfer can get her back to the winners circle in the BC again.
Just don't know.

3rd or 5th choice, really? She has been overbet in almost every career race. She would probably be co favorite with Stellar Wind, 2nd choice at worst. Even though right now i dont think she could beat at least 4 horses being pointed to the Distaff.

Isn't the shine off of her star quite a bit now ?

The most immediate concern for Songbird is to clear this physical exam hurdle by the owner. Regardless of actual results, the owner's comments suggest that he's looking for a way out of any further exposure.

What he doesn't seem to realize is that there is plenty of time for Songbird to come to hand before the Breeder's Cup. If given the green light, there is no way Hollendorfer follows this cute little trend of "training up to the BC" (just when you thought the f'n circus couldn't get any worse). She will almost certainly run in the Zenyatta, which is important, because it gives the filly a chance to run from "out of her stall". Lots of people, and quasi-people (e.g., Freddy), have taken it for granted that she brings her A-game to her East Coast starts. That wasn't the case last year (her highest rated race was the BC Distaff at Santa Anita), so why should it be this year? Keep in mind that two horses that supposedly laid her over a barrel, Stellar Wind and Beholder, never were able to duplicate their home form on the road.

Speaking of those two, when was the first time Stellar Wind actually ran a fast race? Looks like October of her 4yo season to me. Beholder? August of her 5yo year. There's still time for Songbird to move up.

Finally, as a point of comparison with Beholder, I mentioned last year that Beholder's 2016 defeats--the Pacific Classic aside where she clearly was not in California Chrome's league--might be related to the fact that she was being sent to the lead and thus a sitting duck in the stretch. In fact, at the time it had been over 3 years since she won a race wire-to-wire. In the BC, she reverted to a stalking trip and tagged Songbird late.

I'd be curious to see if Songbird could improve form by tweaking her running style. Having a target to run at might change things up, or at the very least give Smith a better cue as to when to try and break the race open with her speed. Last year, Songbird sat second early in 3 of 8 starts.

Pretty sure she beat Stellar wind. Who has only beaten Val, not songbird. Stellar wind will never beat Songbird. She won't lose again. Her star reads all wins except in the personal ensign . awarded second money despite winning the Breeders' Cup Distaff

Really looking forward to watching her rate in the Distaff that will be fun. Let's just hope the Delmar surface is to her liking.

I brought up Paradise Woods earlier, so what do we make of her?

Was that one freakish run, just a fluke?

Another horse that suffered "too much, too soon". Jumped from a 5 1/2 furlong maiden win to 8 1/2 furlongs next out--never mind it was a Grade 1 race. Ran in the Kentucky Oaks in her 4th career start.

Simply put, she hasn't been able to overcome any adversity. Couldn't handle pace pressure, couldn't handle a muddy surface, maybe couldn't handle shipping. Then last weekend, couldn't overcome a bad break from the gate, couldn't settle, and folded like a cheap suit.

Probably has physical issues, too, since she didn't come out at 2, then went on the shelf for several months after the KY Oaks. Stumbling out the gate is never a good sign either in that respect.

If they sit on her and wait for the La Brea or an allowance at the end of the year, she might be able to realize some of her promise.

Yeah, the surface is a huge concern. Especially since Songbird has been so finicky about what tracks she likes in the past.

:tro: Mo is so far off on this one

Well, Arrogate ran on everything before Delmar...

Yep, and his Beyer jumped up 30 points when he actually trained on it for a few weeks, registering the 5th fastest Beyer so far this year.

Well we heard about the deep tiring track at Delaware so at least we have that excuse already warmed up in the bullpen. That plucky 92 BSF life or death to fend off a 50 claimer while galloping alone on the lead was just the a tear jerker who knew the good lord created such magnificence, we are blessed. I turned to the wife and said "remember Rachel's Haskell forget that Kaka this filly Songbird just re invented greatness.." Tito pass me a tissue

How about trying the boys I guess that's a non starter now huh? Even with her not having to commute to work? Good news with the advent of her new preferred way of going(rating) AND not having to travel she is likely to sprout wings..I don't know I am starting to think the Classic is the likely target why screw with Stellar Wind and we know she would have won last week if that cheat jockey didnt surprise her at the last minute or was it the crooked camera? Who knows maybe it was both?

Let's stop the madness for a minute and realize we both can name 10 fillies that she couldnt get with 5 lengths of on her best day. Does that make her rat NO it makes her absurd rep unwarranted.

Utter filth. Never mind historical fillies--we all know she's not as fast. But name me some contemporary females that Songbird could have faced that were consistently running faster than her at the same point in their careers.

Beholder? Nope.
Stellar Wind? No.
Untapable? Wrong.
I'm A Chatterbox? Please.
Wedding Toast? Nah.
Curlina? Try again.
Forever Unbridled? SMH.
Stopcharginmaria? Really?
Sheer Drama? Scraping the bottom here.
Got Lucky? Not quite.
Warren's Veneda? Fail.
Elate? Forget about it.
Abel Tasman? Are you serious?

The only filly I could find was Cavorting, who registered 3 straight triple digit Beyers (top of 102) last year. Of course, she "bone bruised" her way into retirement after that display, conveniently opting out of both the Beldame and the BC Distaff--you know, championship events.

And as far as absurdity goes, it doesn't get any more absurd then foregoing a post-race interview of the winner of the Personal Ensign (Joel Rosario on Forever Unbridled) to ask Mike Smith if Songbird should be retired for losing the race in a photo.

The reality is Songbird can easily win this year's BC Distaff, because as slow as she is, so is everyone else--just like last year.

She had an was lead saturday race was hers to lose..slow,fractions not tested. Should have been a romp..obviously something is amiss or everyone has caught up..when fillies go bad they stay bad..retire her

The race was nearly identical to her race in the BC Distaff. She responded when challenged mid stretch and just failed to last. Note Eskenformoney, who made a run at her along the fence, got her head ripped off, just like I'm A Chatterbox when she came at her in the BC last year. Forever Unbridled looked like she was going to crash the party last year when Songbird had an easy trip, so it shouldn't be particularly shocking that she was able to turn the tables in a race on relatively neutral ground.

Songbird has not "gone bad" by any stretch of the imagination. It's almost as if the naysayers want her gone now that she got beat again...I presume in case she happens to step up in her next two and ruins the "I told you so" party.