Do any trainers not cheat?
 

When is somebody going to clean this sport up.

The Delaware Thoroughbred Racing Commission on Tuesday upheld a 30-day suspension and $1,000 fine against Scott Lake, the nation's leading trainer, after one of his horses was found to have the drug clenbuterol in its system.

After winning the fifth race at Delaware Park on June 7, the Lake-trained Secret Run tested positive in urine and blood samples for clenbuterol, a drug used to open the bronchial passages. Commission rules allow the drug to be used but it cannot be in a horse's system on race day.


It is nice to know if you didn't bet on his horse in that race the guy basically stole from you. How is this guy still allowed to train horses?

do you know what used to open up my horses branchial passages before a race? Vicks!

Do you think that everyone who has a clenbuterol positive should be barred? Yes or no. And I want you to think about this answer before you give it.

Its very easy to give an overage of Clen, trainers miss cut dates, trainers miss a lot of things. Trainers dont want to pay good help, they would rather have a bunch of skunks running around f'ing everything up. There is no excuse for a clen over, none. If you know the cut day it should never happen. However Mr.Lake is the king of Clen. We have taken horses off of him and had them crash days after we stopped clen. They wouldnt pick up the bit, they wouldnt even get into a gallop. They were flat as pancakes. Very sound, just flat. I think its just like human withdrawl from clen. When I used to be very into working out I would take clen as a cut cycle while reducing water. A few weeks after offing clen I would be exhausted, have horrible headaches, shake badly. It doesnt do all that to horses, but the crashing can be related. Lots of trainers use clen, I would say probably 90%I dont think anyone uses it to the extent Mr Lake does.

To answer the question there are a lot of trainers that dont cheat.

Just have to love the headline on the DRF website on this Lake positive

"Lake to appeal latest ban"


My Friend has claim off Lake and said the same thing that are flat and
seem to have withdrawl symptoms

http://www.ivis.org/proceedings/AAEP/2000/229.pdf

pay particular attention to page 4...where the question of performance enhancement is addressed...
Don't get me wrong, I know some trainers use it the same way bodybuilders use it...but actual performance improvement in the horse has been disproven.

And if Scott Lake wants to claim that he was using this as legitimate treatment for mucus or other bronchial infection I will repeat what I have said before...if the horse needs to be on medication that horse should not be running.

Of course not. I thought you were Mr. I hate cheaters. Now you are defending the ones that get caught. Interesting. Did Dutrow ever get caught cheating? Just curious.

Thats not realistic. And I'm still waiting for revolution to tell me if he thinks that any trainer with a clenbuterol postive should be banned for life.
One of his "buddies" that trains has a clen positive.

Define cheating princess. Your buddy in maryland has a clen postive as well.:)

what's not realistic?
Not running a horse with a legitimate lung infection?
or not using a drug off-label in an attempt to enhance performance?

I think they should all be banned for life when they get their second positive.

Personally I think all drugs should be banned. Screw veterinarians, they are the ones that created this problem.

Your buddy has 4 at least.

I don't own any horses. I couldn't even afford to feed them for one day.

Who is my buddy?

You didn't answer the question about Dutrow. Did he ever get caught cheating?

It amazes me how you call a pitcher with pinetar a cheater, and that is more acceptable in that sport, but when your buddy gets caught cheating it is ok, because they all do it.

You are so full of it is isn't even funny. You are about as two faced as they come.

Kiss kiss princess. I think that one was intentional. You don't put an overage of pine tar on by accident. But you aren't real bright about anything anyway.

You don't have positives by accident either. If you believe they do you are even dumber than I thought. Next you will tell me Gary Sheffield and Jason Giambi didn't know what they are taking. You aren't that bright, but you can't use stupidity as an excuse for everything.

The trainers in horse racing all cheat. You know it too, but it is ok for them and not ok for baseball pitchers. Either you say it is part of the sport or you say they are all cheaters. You can't pick and choose, like you seem to do.

They are not all cheaters, despite your ignorant views.
You heading over to Aqueduct today to talk with the head honchos and call them crooks? Lemme know how that works out for you.

Mr. Two Face, why can't you answer why it is ok for Dutrow to cheat but not Kenny Rogers. Dutrow was caught and suspended. Kenny Rogers cheated and wasn't even technically caught. But Rogers is a cheater and Dutrow just made a mistake. Hilarious. Either you are really stupid or you are two faced, and while you clearly aren't that bright, you aren't that stupid.

No--they all don't cheat, and cheating varies by degrees.

I just assume they all cheat.
That way, I will only be wrong about a few of them.

I hope the Arabs get busted big-time at CD.
Let's dq them from that big purse money!!

PAIS

Im not including Clen in commonly used drugs to enhance equine performance. Winstrol, Trenbolone, Deca, Aflutop, Equipoise, Cancer Drugs, Lasix, those are all drugs we can use to improve performance. I think used in conjunction with these drugs, Clen can be useful. The thing Lake does that others dont is he never offs the clen. They are continually on a cycle, most trianers will go on for a while then remove the horse after hes over his lung infection. Lake continues use until he absolutely has to remove them, when you do that you open the window for a positive.

Then cheaper trainers will claim off Lake, not continue is training regimen, and ultimately the horse flops.

I have been in the horse business for about 20 years. I own horses and just for the record so people don't start to throw stones (seems to be a lot of that going on around here, LOL), I have had and currently have a horse with Scott Lake. I am not a vet. Unless you are one, giving opinions on the medicinal aspects of these discussions is perhaps a waste of time because the opinion is not truly a qualified one.

Also, for the record, I do not think a trainer should be banned for life after a first, second or third clenbuterol. I have said that before I knew and had a horse with Scott Lake and I say the same thing after.

I don't want to get into the "who is cheating" and "who is not" routine. There is far too much hypocrisy there. If a horse is stepping foot onto the track for a race, and he/she is racing 100% on hay, grain and water -- unfortunately that horse is at a comepititive disadvantage. We may not like it but that is the truth.

I don't view clenbuterol as one of these designer or exotic drugs. It has its place on the backstretch. It is medicinal, when precribed and used in the right places -- at least I think it is or can be. However, its not allowed on race day or X amount of days out. Period. I think unifom medication rules are needed and with something like clenbuterol, there needs to be a graduated scale.

How about a first offense of a clenbuterol positive there should be a fine ($X). Second offense, days, and five times $X in fines. Third offense, major days and ten times the original fine. But there are problems here as well. There are gray areas here -- contamination, split samples not agreeing, etc. Sabotage, mistakes, etc. There are scale questions as well. The trainers responsibility rule applies. One trainer has 200 horses and has 2000 starts, another trainer has 4 horses and races 30 or 40 starts. I don't know what the answer is.

Eric

Eric

Generally anyone getting an overage of Clen is an accident. Its usually a miscommunication between the trainer, assistant, or whomever gives the medication in regards to when the horse is going to run. Clen is a class 3 drug for a reason, because its not a big deal as far as horse performance goes.

There are a lot of other drugs used to jump a horses performance. My opinion is qualified for the record.

We all want bigger fields and horses to race longer and more often. Drugs is an important aspect of this, Each state names and limits the drugs. This is the problem. We all look for excuses for us loosing at the windows and cheating trainers and owners is one of them. I dont have the answer but the another problem is the "perforance inhancing" term we use. If the drug "inhances " the health of a horse this is the bottom line. We all say we are for whats best for the horse. How many of you have asthma? Wouldnt life be a "bitch " without your inhaler. Imaintain the drug polices should be concerned about the horses health . If it aids them in running then so be it. Maybee im to trusting but I think we lose sight of the game and worry too much about the gambling.

As a laymen, to a layperson's extent, I do understand about this -- "generally" -- and that is a key word here -- how a clenbuterol positive occurs. I agree with you and as such think that this may be people looking to kill a fly with a machine gun.

I am not trivializing this either. However, I think there is another problem here. Let's not name names here but I think when trainer X, Y, or Z -- and the trainer is one of these super-trainers, high % trainers, who is known for moving up horses, is the target of all the rumors and speculation, or one of the so called "drug trainers", etc. -- when one of these trainers comes up with a clenbuterol positive I think people look to hang them for it. Why? That's the dynamic of human nature.

Because they can't hang them for the "other thing" -- the "thing" that they haven't been caught at -- not yet at least. That is the "thing" that everyone thinks and knows in their heart they are guilty of. Well, personally, and this is JMVHO, I don't embrace that mindset. Now I am not defending these people -- hell, I have to race against them just like everyone else. But I just don't think you can convict a person, condemn them, ban them for life, etc. -- for something they haven't been caught doing. Yes, I know it's not that simple, but I do see that there.

It's kind of like Al Capone movie -- they could not catch or convict him of any of the real crimes that everyone knew he was gulity of. So what do they get him on -- tax evasion.

Eric

Did anyone see Scott Lakes horses going down at Penn National at 2/5 last night in $2500 claimers. Bet against him for the next month. They werent even hitting the board.

If you want this type of thing to stop make it a $10,000 fine the first time and double it each positive after that ($20k, $40k, $80k, $160k, $320k, etc...). Never suspend, just don't allow any horses from that trainer until his fines are paid. I would think this latest Lake positive would have cost him about $1M. He can pay it and race or quit. It would put the real accountability on the trainer.

The suspensions for X days don't mean anything to a trainer, because the top assistant takes over for the 30 days and enters in his name and nothing changes, but knowing the next Clen positive cost $1M or loss of trainers license will fix the problem.

Better yet I think the first fine should be eleventy billion dollars and the trainer should be criminally charged with animal abuse and aiding and abetting terrorists because everyone knows the terrorists made him cheat.

It is too easy to get a Clen positive to have fines like that. In most cases the Clen is an honest mistake. In a large barn it is very easy to get a horse lost in the shuffle and over medicate them, especially when its given by assistant trainers and grooms. Im not sure if you realize this, but usually clen is given by a trainers assistant, not a vet, not a vets assistant. They leave you the clen, and expect it to be handled properly. It would be impossible for X trainer to treat 250 horses with clen, that is where the mistakes come in, and that is where the overages manifest. Do you think a trainer should have a million dollar fine because of an honest mistake made by someone with a 5th grade education, making 300 dollars per week? I dont. I understand a Clen positive, I do not understand any caine positive, its not possible to make that mistake because they are Iv drugs.

Bid-- I was not directing my comment towards you ...or anyone actually...except perhaps the person who started the thread. I just wanted to point out for those that might not know that this drug --while outwardly appearing to make a difference in a horse will not actually improve it's performance.
Nor do I have any idea about the training methods of Scott Lake...
i agree with you that a horse will 'crash' when taken off this drug...much like humans do. I also believe that it is a wonderful product when used for its intended purpose...it allowed a 'heavy' old pony that i knew to live quite comfortably in his final years, and we gave it all the time to yearlings when they developed coughs or mucous after shipping to a sale.
As you said in your initial post there is no excuse for a clen overage. Either the horse is sick and doesn't run until it finishes the medication and subsequent withdrawl time. OR it isn't...and then the trainer has to deal with the consequence.

I own horses. I know mistakes happen. But let's be honest here, positives can be avoided. And if it cost the trainer more, than more attention would be paid to the medications given to horses. The real issue here in my mind is exactly stated at the top of the thread. Any horse who wins and tests positive stole money from the patrons/bettors.

This game is struggling enough to need slots in most states to keep it running. This is not the heyday of horseracing. The sport needs to do everything in its power to not alienate the fans. I think most of us take the ups and downs and grey areas of racing as the way it works. But the occasional patron/bettor may never bet again if a horse who beat him is positive. He/she would say it is fixed.

There is enough shady things that go on a a track (fixes, incorrectly reported workouts, running horses into shape, etc...) to not tackle one that can be easily monitored and avoided. If you are a trainer who is so sloppy as to not care about a huge fine, then pay it. Otherwise, pay more attention to the medications given to your horses or be out of the game. There is no shortage of owners or aspiring trainers.

I think its the trainers fault on any positive, especially when you give it yourself. However I do understand how a Clen positive comes about.

Horses do crash off of it.

My basic argument is the general incompetence of trainers and their help. Its sickening to see how some big outfits operate, ridiculous infact. Guys couldnt work at a burger stand yet they are dealing with millions of dollars in bloodstock. For sure there is no other place in the world where someone who speaks no english, and makes 12k a year handles millions of dollars in investments. Its insane.

I had a trainer once tell me..."ah, this is the horse business, its a different kind of business" To that my answer was BULL****, business is business. There is no difference, the only difference is trainers (Employees) arent qualified to run a business.

That is simply not true. Not all medications enhance the performance of the horse.

Then that is a fan the game really doesn't need. It's far more damaging to the game to have a bunch of degenerates at the track vocally complaining about how trainers are juicin horses and jockeys pull up horses, etc. etc. I witness this everytime I go to the track. Any track.

If the racing fan were serious about cleaning up the game then surely the first place to start would be complaining to race management to get the grounds security to actually do some work and boot out the degenerates who come to the track and bet $1 exacta boxes with their welfare check and get on their soapbox about what's wrong with the game when their $6 will pay doesn't come through.

Yeah because these trainers who are fined under your new system aren't going to trickle the fines to the owners. Then the average joe owners will start leaving the game in higher numbers than they are now and you'll look up and there will be nothing left.

It's difficult to impose these strict fines and suspensions when the testing isn't fullproof and EPO testing isn't in the equation.

It is not about the performance enhancement. It is about it not being legal. Why is it illegal? The rules are the rules, regardless of why they are the rules.

While I'll agree there are some characters the track could probably do without. The game needs all the fans it can get. When you go to a track that is at capacity, then you can start to discriminate against the patrons.

Well, I don't know about you, but I appreciate every dollar that makes it in the pools. I might like to suggest a $20 minimum window to filter some of these folks out of my line, but kick them out never.

Most average joe owners aren't with the kinds of $$$ trainers you're mentioning anyway. The kind who could pass off the increase to their owners. They are with trainers who would be forced to be more careful or be out of the game. If the trainer is top trainer and his well-to-do clients are willing to help eat his fines then that is fine. But the fines won't force out the average joe owner, just the sloppy trainer.

That is ruled on by a panel of folks who look at all the evidence. And what they decide is the final decision. Live with it. Its a free country so complain if you like, but live with it.

So your proposal of fines is the same for any type of drug? **** I hope you're not a lawmaker. Jesusjumpeduphitler.



My point was those degenerates scare more casual fans away from the game than a positive on a horse. The majority of casual fans don't bother reading DRF and other publications on a daily basis.



There are $50 minimum windows already. Besides that was not my point. My point was their behavior at the track, what they bet is just an example of the sort of folk who act like fools.

The fact that these types of people are the backbone of the sport shows the hypocrisy of those who cry for stiffer punishments for positive tests. They can't afford to be at the track but they're pretty much allowed to act like fools as long as they spend money.




That's hilarious. The fine system you proposed would run everyone but the bluebloods, coolmore and the sheikhs out of the game in the span of 5 years.



I'm living with it. You're the one proposing stiffer fines. Duhr.

PP-

Here's the thing. Without patrons, there is no horseracing for the average joe owner to get squeezed out of. So, either get the so-called non-performance enhancing substances off the list or monitor all drug administration closer.

I actually think the percentage of out right cheating trainers is very low. I think the percentage who put careful administration of drugs high on their list of things to do is also very low.

In any event, the game needs to be cleaned up a bit and the current penalties give trainers almost no reason to do it themselves.

-TF

CLASSIC! That one is almost as good as Steve's Jezuztapdancingchrist... :D

What I find interesting is that the harness business has made a lot more progress than the thoroughbred business. Look at what NJ did with the recent people they caught. Monster fines, 10 year suspensions, potential lifetime suspensions -- and this is not the first time they've done it. They did it years ago as well. Have they totally cleaned up the game? No of course not.

However, on the other side of the coin, I do think there is a bit of the "martyr" element here. It's not all the time but it's there some of the time. People who often cannot compete look to blame others instead of themselves. Now I am not saying that is a major part of it, but I will say this -- I am not going to name names (so don't bother asking), however, I have a trainer in NY who has trained several horses for us over the course of the past 5 years or so. The vet bills with this trainer are minimal compared to other trainers we've used. They are minimal compared to friends of mine who have horses with other trainers. . Now this is a high-percentage trainer who shoots really well. Very strong. But -- he races his horses where they can win. He is very aggressive when placing his horses. He gives his horses the time needed and doesn't push the envelope in racing or over-racing them. And when a horse can't cut it or isn't competitive, he tells us so and tells us it's time to move on.

There are trainers in this business who produce results and don't rely on the vet to be the major contributory factor in producing those results.

Eric

It's pretty obvious that some trainers are "stretching the rules" as far as they possibly can.

I can buy the fact that one trainer might have a great streak, or even has a knack for claiming horses, like Frankel used to back in the day, and be 30% or so first off the claim. I cannot buy the fact that there are 2-3 of these 30-50% first off claiming trainers at almost every racetrack today. To me, that statistic by itself is the most obvious in finding who the most likely "rule stretchers" are.

Now some people will say they are just better trainers, read the condition books better, and train for more aggressive owners who aren't afraid to lose their horses via a lower claiming price. That is believable to me and I can buy it to a point. Where my suspicion starts to arise again is when I see many of the old school trainers struggle today. These are the trainers who for a VERY long time were successful and seemed to have an idea of how to train consistent winners. Now they can barely hit the board, even though they still get quality stock.

Why is this happening?? Are these trainers getting old, maybe. Did they forget how to train, I doubt it. Are they less likely to "stretch the rules" and/or put their owners and the owners property in compromising positions, IMO, absolutely.