Most Impressive World Record
 

Which horse has the most impressive world record (dirt, non-sprint)…and why do you think so?

Dist…..Horse....…………….Age…….Wt…….Track, Date ………...Time
8f……..Dr Fager……………...4……..134…….AP, 24-Aug-68……....1:32 1
8½f…..Hoedown's Day…...5……..119…….BM, 23-Oct-83……...1:38 2
9f……..Simply Majestic…….4…….114…….GG, 2-Apr-88……......1:45 0
9½f……Riva Ridge…………...4…….127……..AQU, 4-Jul-73……....1:52 2
10f…….Spectacular Bid……4…….126……..SA, 3-Feb-80…….....1:57 4
12f…….Secretariat………….3……..126……..BEL, 9-Jun-73……....2:24 0
13f…….Swaps………………...4……..130……...HOL, 25-Jul-56……..2:38 1
16f…….Kelso……………….....7……..124……..AQU, 31-Oct-64…...3:19 1

Bid or Dr. Fager because those records have withstood the test of time on commonly run distances. While Secretariat's record was certainly stunning, there just aren't many chances for that record to be bested.

To me it will always be Secretariat. Reason being here is a horse that went through the rigors of the Triple Crown Races and still on Belmont Day put in (IMO) the greatest performance of all time.

I agree with this and would like to add that Dr. Fager was carrying 134 pounds when he set the record at the mile.

However, I also agree with Round Pen for the reasons that he stated about Secretariat.

I can't really decide which is the best of these three. Three great world records set by three great horses. Of course, if I was made to decide, I would probably have to go with Spectacular Bid because he was the best of all of these horses overall IMO.

Spectacular Bid's 10 furlong performance was the best to me. Maybe I'm biased because I got the chance to see him on the backstretch a number of times as a kid along with a number of races. He was a machine who could put on devastating performances at a number of distances. Best horse never to win a Triple Crown. His 7 furlong performance that was recently broken because of a souped up track was also an incredible performance.

8f……..Dr Fager……………...4……..134…….AP, 24-Aug-68……....1:32 1

i think secretariat was the best racehorse there ever was.....but to me dr. fager's record is the most impressive.
how many horses in the last 38 years have run a race at 8f? i'm guessing millions.....and most of them were not carrying 134 lbs.......yet his record still stands.

by the way......really good idea for a thread.

If Dr. Fager's record is so impressive how come he shares it with Najran, who wasn't exactly a superhorse?

Secretariats record is all by itself.

Huh? So impressive? For starters, no one equalled it between 1968 and 2003. I guess there weren't too many dirt miles run in those 35 years...

Najran was no Dr. Fager, but he was VERY fast, and when really right, in 2003, exceptionally fast. In addition to his 1:32.1 mile, he also ripped a 1:08.1 6f in the Phoenix. And as an aside, Fager's record came carrying 132, Najhran 113.

Denegrating Fager's record by associating it negatively with Najran is illogical. Fager's record and performance level is basically without parallel in American racing history.

yeah, i'll bet najran was carrying the same weight too.....


i'd take the docs and the bids. had spectacular bid run 12 that day, secs record would have gone down.

Sometimes the tracks are souped up on different days, therefore, allowing an inferior horse to set track records. Of course, the combination of the track being souped up and Najran running his heart out could have equalled Dr. Fager's record. How come all of the great horses who have run at 8 furlongs couldn't beat or equal Dr. Fager's record? Also, Dr. Fager was carrying 134 pounds.

Also, Spectacular Bid was a better horse than Secretariat IMO. Secretariat never came close to SB's mile and a quarter record. The mile and a quarter distance is the most important distance for classic horses. That is why both the Kentucky Derby and the Breeder's Cup Classic are run at that distance in addition to the Hollywood Gold Cup, Jockey Club Gold Cup, Santa Anita Handicap, Pacific Classic, Travers, and Suburban. An argument for Secretariat would be that he still holds the track and stakes record at Churchill Downs. Of course, SB remains in a league of his own as a four year old still today. No horse could have matched SB as a four year old. None. He proved that by setting numerous records, having a walk-over, and going out undefeated for his four year old year. A phenomenal racehorse...

Of course, I don't think that any horse could have matched Secretariat in his three year old year either...

How do you know the track wasn't souped up for Dr. Fager? Najran set his record on a weekday, so i doubt the track was souped up.

As for the Bid's record, he did it at age 4. Notice only 1 record is held by a 3yr old, and years ago there were so big races other than the Belmont run at 12f. Nobody has ever come close to it. Not close. Secretariat still holds the Kentucky Derby record, and every single year 20 of the top horses in the world try to break it, and despite the efforts of the track maintenance crew, nobody has come close.

You don't know when the track is going to be souped up. It is usually caused by weather conditions and not track management.

Monarchos came close in 2000;). Yet, there is another example of an inferior horse (sorry Monarchos) being the first to break two minutes in the Derby since Secretariat and Sham. Do you now see why the Najran comparison isn't logical?

Bellamy Road equalled Riva Ridge's record when he was a three year old...;)

It is also interesting that Belmont Park deepened and slowed the track down after Ruffian's death. So, no horse since Ruffian's death has had the chance to do what Secretariat did that day at Belmont. It is impossible. Of course, it may have been impossible anyway, but we will never know. The Belmont track will never be as fast as it was on that day. I'm not saying that it was all the track because it wasn't. Secretariat was just a great racehorse, and maybe the biggest freak that ever lived.

However, Spectacular Bid did more during his career, and was better overall.

1) Najran shares the track record with Dr. Fager. There is no logical or illogical about anything. Najran is the world record holder.
2) Monarchos did not beat Secretariats track record, who cares about close
3) Weather has less to do with the track being souped up than track crews
4) Bellamy Road equaled Riva Ridge's track record at 9f, not Riva's world record at 9.5f. Bellamy is 2 full seconds short of the world record at 9f.
5) Secretariat is the only 3yr old with a world record.
6) Secretariat is a triple crown winner, Spectacular Bid is NOT. How was the Bid on the turf?

najran will have an * next to his name on that record, as he was carrying less weight than the horse he shares that record with. so it's not 'equal' in most peoples opinion. how could it be?
as for how was the bid on turf-i dont' recall him running on it, so who knows? that would be like asking how secretariat was at four.

2) But he came close.
3) Ha...tell that to all the horses that constantly break records at tracks in which there would be NO reason for souping up the tracks for those horses.
4) Still, Bellamy Road equalled the track record at 9f and he was a three year old.
6) Spectacular Bid holds the mile and a quarter record...the most important distance. Also, Spectacular Bid equalled records as a two year old. Secretariat did not. Specatacular Bid was OVERALL the better horse who had just as good of a four year old year as Secretariat's three year old year. In fact, I think Secretariat's BSF average for his three year old year was at 115 and the Bid's BSF average was at 122 for his four year old year.

How was Secretariat as a four year old?:rolleyes:

He won't have any * next to it. That is ridiculous. Do we put an asterisk next to records because one is on a track that is known to be faster, or one that has a pace scenario that benefitted a horse?

Najran is a world record holder with Dr. Fager. It is that simple. The original poster needs to add Najran.

As for the Bid and Secretariat, the Bid could never be Secretariat, because Secretariat pulled off the toughest feat in the sport. He won the triple crown. The Bid couldn't get it done. There are no excuses when talking about greatness either. You either get it done or you don't.

yeah, i'm sure secretariats five losses were 'getting it done'...

as for the original poster, take up your issues with his question with him. i see no problem with only putting dr fager up there, since dr fager is the only one to break the mile record while carrying 134 pounds.

I'm with you on this one Danzig. Dr. Fager was a GREAT horse who deserves all the praise and credit in the world.

I think it's funny in how the TC is emphasized sooo much. Some not so great horses have won the TC, and some great horses that should have won the TC didn't for one reason or another.

Ghostzapper didn't win the TC and he was a freak. Kelso didn't win the TC either. Neither did Man O' War, Dr. Fager, Cigar, Spectacular Bid, Damascus, or Buckpasser. All were great horses. Some tried and failed. Some didn't even get the chance to run.

Nor could Secretariat have ever been the Bid...

Weight means nothing when talking world records. So if a horse carries 135 and runs 10f in 158 and another carries 125 and runs it is 157.4, by your reasoning the horse carrrying 135 should get the record. It doesn't work that way. The horse with the faster time is the record holder. Both horses have the same time and therefore are both world record holders.

Two things that really separate two of these records from all others imo....

Dr. Fager's because of the weight he was carrying....didn't know that, thanks Steve....he was carrying 19 lbs more than the horse he shares it with....

Secretariat for a whole lot of reasons, but the biggest one imo is that he did it by himself....he had no pressure and Turcott just let him go and for a horse to go that distance in that time without any horse hooked is the thing that makes this record simply amazing....

I believe the second, third, and fourth fastest Belmonts were run by Point Given, Risen Star, and Easy Goer, in what order I don't remember. Not that it means anything, but that trio won by 12, 15, and 8 lengths respectively. The fastest of this group, however would still have been 10 lengths behind Sec.

AP Track records
1 M Dr. Fager 4 134 August 24, 1968 1:32 1/5
1 1/8 M Spectacular Bid 4 130 July 19, 1980 1:46 1/5

It would have taken the great Bid 14 seconds carrying a "feather" to run that last furlong against the good Doctor

I agree...

I didn't see Cougar II's 11f in 2:11:0 on your list. Yes, it was on turf, but it was the fastest recorded at the distance on any surface at the time. All hail His Felinity!

lol
nice attempt at twisting my post into what my 'reasoning' would show.

other horses shared the wins in a row record with cigar and citation, yet when a horse is attempting to tie or break it, as it was recently, you didn't see mister frisky and hallowed dreams when it was being discussed. just like other horses besides colin and personal ensign retired undefeated. yet their records are nothing compared to those two great champions.
obviously the fastest is the record. BUT dr fager set his under far different, and far more strenuous circumstances than najran. i see no reason to give them co-billing. others do. good for them and you.

Of course I believe the greatest race of all time was Secretariat's Belmont...it should be noted that he was timed in 1:59 flat for ten furlongs that day and racetrack timers who kept the watch on him claim he broke the record for 13 furlongs as well before Ronnie could finally pull him up! And while he did the last half by himself, he first disposed of a great thoroughbred (Sham) in suicidal early fractions...lets not forget that fact! Everybody watching the race that day was crying, "he's going too fast, too fast, what is Turcott trying to do, kill the horse?" Of course he had no control, he was just along for the ride! Secretariat subsequently set the world mark for 9 furlongs later that year in the Marlboro but this was a super race! All the records are great, and nothing away from the Bid and the good Doctor...but there has been only one Secretariat and only one perfect race...the 73 Belmont!

i agree with all that somer, except for sham being a great horse.

http://www.dailynews.com/sports/ci_4520189

just went to equidaily and they had an article a guy wrote about the top ten records in the sport. sec, bid and dr fager all made the list, as did cigar. no mention of najran, mister frisky or hallowed dreams! whatdya know.

I would guess that all the TC winners, Man O War, Risin Star, Easy Goer, Point Given, Afleet Alex, Bet Twice, Conquistador and many others would have finished in front of Sham in Sec's Belmont. I din't mention Smarty because of f'in Birdstone

The fact of Secretariats' speed increasing at every quarter is jaw-dropping to me. That stand out to me,but Dr Fagers' accomplishments are Super, considering the weights of todays' thoros! The Bid was a great one too!

There really is not a bad choice or a wrong choice. All are world records and each is the best it’s ever been done. The majority opinion seems to be that Secretariat, Fager, or Spectacular Bid holds the most impressive record. My own opinion is that Super Red holds the most impressive performance and it is really not that close per my view. Following are the reasons for my conclusion:

Point 1 – Purely Mathematical
The link below shows a chart of the average pace (seconds-per-furlong) for the standing world records between 6fl and 16fl. The curve fit line shows the expected WR average pace based on all the data points. This curve follows a natural log function as most empirical measurements in the natural world tend to do (thus the derivation of natural logs). The graph on the right side is amplified to illustrate the difference between Bid and Red as per the expected record pace. Red is fast by 0.475% while Bid is fast by 0.311%. Dr Fager’s time falls precisely on the expected world record pace for a mile. So based purely on a mathematical basis, Secretariat has the most unusual time.

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m...at/wr_pace.jpg

Point 2 – Time and Win Margin
Time and margin of victory tend to validate each other. If you see a fast time with a narrow win margin, it’s a good bet that the track is playing very fast, especially if there are two or more horses finishing close to the victor. If you see a fast time with a large win margin, then the odds are that the horse generated an outstanding performance. Per this line of thinking, Secretariat broke the existing 12fl Belmont Park record by a whopping 2.6 seconds and won by an equally astounding 31 lengths suggesting an absolutely amazing performance, otherwise, the margin of victory would have been much smaller if the time was due primarily to a supped-up track. Bid broke the Santa Anita 10fl track record by an impressive 0.8 seconds and won by 3.5 lengths which indicates that the place horse also broke the track record. This suggests that the track was probably playing very fast.

Dr Fager broke the 1 mile record at Arlington Park by 0.4 seconds and won by 10 lengths, thereby validating the time with a large margin of victory. He was also toting 134lbs which adds to the magnitude of the feat. Accounting for weight is a difficult proposition. The old standard use to be 2lbs = 1 length. An Australian study I read stated that 1.5 kilograms (3.3lbs) = 1 length at a distance of 1 mile. Another study I found suggested that weight actually aided some horses in deep stretch via an added momentum factor (I don’t buy this myself). A famous trainer once stated that weight does not matter much unless the impost exceeds 127 lbs for males and 123 for females. Also, the size of the horse makes a difference as to how well a horse carries weight. (Old Forego didn’t mind weight at all.) Based on all these varying opinions, I’ve concluded that 2.5lbs = 1 length at weights above 127lbs. This relationship suggests that Fager may be credited with (134-127) 7 lbs = 2.8 lengths (7/2.5) = 0.47 seconds (1 second = 6 lengths) running time. This means that Fager broke the track record by the equivalent of 0.87 seconds with a 10 length margin of victory. This result is more impressive than Bid’s mark, but no where near Secretariat’s performance.

Point 3 – Speed Figures
Dr Quirin and Andrew Beyer both published that Secretariat’s Belmont (148 originally, later adjusted down to 138 on the current Beyer scale) remains the highest ever figure awarded. That’s good enough for me.

Point 4 – Age
3yos are not supposed to beat older horses. The 4&up group typically improve their running times by an average of 4 lengths (10fl ref distance) as compared to their 3yo run times. The fact that Secretariat put up such an amazing WR mark as an early summer 3yo just adds to his legend. Here is a bit of trivia for you folks…Secretariat is the youngest horse ever to break the 2 minute mark going 10fl on the dirt…1:59:2, Ky Derby…3yrs,36days. There have been a slim few 3yos and many older horses to run sub 2 minute times, mostly on the typically fast west coast tracks, but none as young as Red.

Point 5 – Other Considerations
The fact that Red ran his WR time in the third leg of the TC races makes it all the more amazing…10fl in 1:59:2, 9.5fl in 1:53:2, and 12fl in 2:24:0 all in a span of 5 weeks at three different tracks pretty much speaks for itself. Just winning the TC is nearly impossible, but to break all three track records is simply astounding and will never happen again.

Grass times should never be compared to dirt times. The break point is 6.5fl. At distances greater than 6.5fl, grass races are faster. At distances less than 6.5fl, dirt races are faster.

People outside of racing have heard of Secretariat. Ask them about Dr. Fager and they will ask you if you are talking about your dentist.

you'd have more of a chance of most people guessing the secretariat is part of the un than you would of them guessing about a horse who retired over 30 years ago.

i wonder if football or baseball fans give a rats behind about what 'casual observers' feel about their sport....somehow i don't. of course, i don't care much what non-racing fans have to say about racing either. there aren't many fans out there, i'd imagine that's why most of us come here! no one else to talk to about it.

That is the total truth with me. Some people don't even know who Secretariat is! Of course, I don't live in a racing state. I live in NC...the non-racing capitol of the world. We can't even bet here!

I'm glad that I found the ESPN board which led me here. I can talk about horse racing all day long now:D

Bernardini's 10-panel record of 1:57 flat in the 2006 Breeders' Cup Classic was the most impressive to me :D

Forget 1:57 flat. He's going to run it in 156:4:D LOL...