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wac 01-19-2015 12:55 PM

Derby Wars???
 
does anyone on here do these tournaments? Just looking at it, looks kinda fun but is it worth the time/money? if you pick enough winners to win a contest couldn't you make more money by betting on your picks? Just wondering as it at least looks interesting and by only spending $30 to play would probably be cheaper then actually betting on each race. thoughts?

Kasept 01-19-2015 01:46 PM

Fantini should answer this. He said on ATR Friday he's made perhaps $40k on Derby Wars this past year.

Benny 01-19-2015 01:57 PM

Yes and no.Its mostly picking longshots most of the time. It can be a cheap day ifyou usually donate, so the competition can be fun,There are other places too like HorseTourneys, Twinspires, etc. Suggest you play for points at DW to get your feet wet. More sharp players on weekends and big $$ tourneys

outofthebox 01-19-2015 03:33 PM

I hate Derby Wars...Seriously living in La. probably keeping me from being addicted to Derby Wars.

tanner12oz 01-19-2015 04:57 PM

I played at 123bet and thought it was fun. Buyins were small and prizes seemed fair in comparison to people in contests

letswastemoney 01-19-2015 05:13 PM

If you're confident you can consistently reach $70 to $90 in a 6 to 8 race span in $2 WP tournaments, I think you should do well on there.

helicopter11 01-19-2015 05:52 PM

Its a good concept but I am not a fan of the limited formats and the token system. It has great potential similar to that of Fan Duel and Draft Kings.
Great for people who live in a state where they cant bet online.

Arletta 01-19-2015 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by helicopter11 (Post 1013279)
Its a good concept but I am not a fan of the limited formats and the token system. It has great potential similar to that of Fan Duel and Draft Kings.
Great for people who live in a state where they cant bet online.

I am sure Texas will figure out a way to make it illegal as well.

helicopter11 01-19-2015 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arletta (Post 1013282)
I am sure Texas will figure out a way to make it illegal as well.

For sure

fantini33 01-20-2015 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wac (Post 1013234)
does anyone on here do these tournaments? Just looking at it, looks kinda fun but is it worth the time/money? if you pick enough winners to win a contest couldn't you make more money by betting on your picks? Just wondering as it at least looks interesting and by only spending $30 to play would probably be cheaper then actually betting on each race. thoughts?

I actually play in the DerbyWars contests on a very regular basis. It is extremely fun and IMO worth the money. (10%-12% takeout depending on the game)(A takeout you can typically eliminate altogether by winning entries into bigger events...or if a tournament doesn't fill to capacity and still runs) You kind of touched on what is an incredibly important point. Most people will try and play every race on a card, which, in the long run is a recipe for disaster. Action bets will burn more bankroll than you think. I was always guilty of this. Sometimes playing pick 4's is like a crack habit...you just cant help yourself. By playing in contests ALONG with everyday betting I have been able to easily simplify my wagering by focusing on races or sequences I truly like and not playing them all. My ACTION comes in the tournaments so that I have an interest in each and every race on a given card.

fantini33 01-20-2015 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kasept (Post 1013240)
Fantini should answer this. He said on ATR Friday he's made perhaps $40k on Derby Wars this past year.

After speaking with you on Friday I actually went back and looked at my deposit history vs. withdrawl history and the net was just over 35K. This does not include 2 NHC spots which carry a rough value of 8k each.

My guess was not very far off.

fantini33 01-20-2015 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Benny (Post 1013246)
Yes and no.Its mostly picking longshots most of the time. It can be a cheap day ifyou usually donate, so the competition can be fun,There are other places too like HorseTourneys, Twinspires, etc. Suggest you play for points at DW to get your feet wet. More sharp players on weekends and big $$ tourneys

The number of entrants in a given tournament likely dictates the price range on horses you may need to compete. 6 man games you may need just a few midpriced winners. 9 man games a few more. I am on the fair/poor side of coming up with bombs and have done just fine. Looking out in advance of races approaching often will provide you with clues as to when you may need to roll the dice. The style changes throughout a game based on remaining races available and your proximity to the top of the leaderboard. The "game within the game" is the part I find most enjoyable.

DerbyWars has sharp players 7 days a week because they offer $2000 nine entrants winner take all games practically every day. $250 entry. I have played in midweek games that had 5 of the top 10 ranked tour players involved. Yikes! The weekend games offer higher payouts but the field sizes are of course much greater.

fantini33 01-20-2015 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by outofthebox (Post 1013256)
I hate Derby Wars...Seriously living in La. probably keeping me from being addicted to Derby Wars.

It can be addicting.

fantini33 01-20-2015 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by letswastemoney (Post 1013272)
If you're confident you can consistently reach $70 to $90 in a 6 to 8 race span in $2 WP tournaments, I think you should do well on there.

In the typical 100 man Saturday tournament (13-15 races) 2x your money is easily enough to be in contention nearing the final races. (ie..in a 15 race tourney having $80 in contest winning with 5 races to go is USUALLY a nice spot to be.) In the 9 man games or 30 man games that number comes back lower, something like 1.5x your wagers.

fantini33 01-20-2015 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by helicopter11 (Post 1013279)
Its a good concept but I am not a fan of the limited formats and the token system. It has great potential similar to that of Fan Duel and Draft Kings.
Great for people who live in a state where they cant bet online.

I agree about the limited formats and it is something that I think Mark is possibly working on. Maybe some "optional race" tournaments. Some "on site" events. The bracket challenges are certainly unique.

IMO the "token" system is a giant :tro:

I would never pay $235 to play in a 100 person Saturday event. Or $375 to play in a 30 person high stakes Sunday game. And most importantly...$875 to play in a 30 person NHC qualifier.

DerbyWars has opportunities all week long to win tokens for such events, in games of multiple sizes and buy in amounts, and at lots of different tracks.

The $47 9 person games where you win a $375 token is a great deal. First off, they will run these even with only 7 entrants, meaning there is actually a negative takeout. If you can get one in under 7 tries ($47 x 7 = $329) you practically eliminate the takeout yourself. I have been fortunate enough to typically get one in the first 4 or 5 tries meaning that those Sunday contests yield a positive financial expectation for me in the long run. That's the idea anyway.

As far as NHC spots goes. They run $47 24 player contests which yields 1 $875 token. That gets you into a 30 player qualifier where top 2 make it to Vegas. Most qualifying sites they will take like 1 of 65 entrants. I realize that mathematically your overall chance to qualify may be better going the big game way, but I feel as though my practical chances are improved by having to fare well in 2 smaller sized tournaments as opposed to 1 large tournament. Not quite so overwhelming.

fantini33 01-20-2015 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by helicopter11 (Post 1013279)
Its a good concept but I am not a fan of the limited formats and the token system. It has great potential similar to that of Fan Duel and Draft Kings.
Great for people who live in a state where they cant bet online.

I agree that it has similar potential to sports fantasy sites. If anything, it seems to be the best way at this point to draw new players to the game we all love, which is desperately in need of new players.

Derbywars has live Wednesday night and 100k game webcasts which are fun to be a part of as well as constant write-ups and articles on players and tournaments at Horseracingnation. These are nice touches in an effort to get a new generation to become involved.

fantini33 01-20-2015 12:41 PM

I apologize if I have put some people to sleep with my responses.:zz:

senator L 01-20-2015 12:55 PM

Appreciate you sharing your knowledge :tro:

Do you think it would be easier to win on Horse Tourneys
or are they the same level of handicapper?

fantini33 01-20-2015 01:23 PM

You will find a lot of the same players on both sites. Lots of really sharp players, lots of intermediate players, some newcomers. If you have good opinions you will be fine at either place. The other sites seem to have more big contests which require you to submit all picks ahead of time, while Derbywars offers more play as you go type games. (IMO there are pros and cons to both) Derbywars offers the most $$$ games of the sites (I'm 90% sure of this) Horsetourneys offers more NHC spots throughout the year. I think Derbywars only awarded 11 spots this year as opposed to over a hundred at some sites. I would expect that number to grow significantly for the 2016 NHC.

I have enjoyed the majority of my success at Derbywars but I would like to think that is mainly because I focus most of my play there, not that another site may be more difficult to win at.

senator L 01-20-2015 04:57 PM

Thanks Ed! What would be the best way to rate one's level
of skill? Money, wins and how much would you equate betting
in terms of your handicapping skill (they seem to co-relate):rolleyes:
sorry not the greatest with words lol

senator L 01-20-2015 06:32 PM

Also, wondering how long it takes you to handicap
10 races thanks!
I asked Andy Beyer he said 4 hours he was also doing
some extra breeding research though

fantini33 01-21-2015 07:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by senator L (Post 1013326)
Thanks Ed! What would be the best way to rate one's level
of skill? Money, wins and how much would you equate betting
in terms of your handicapping skill (they seem to co-relate):rolleyes:
sorry not the greatest with words lol

I think that rating the skill level of a handicapper is entirely different than rating the skill level of a horseplayer. I have friends that I have learned tons of handicapping from over the years that rarely make money because they simply don not know how to wager on their opinions.

If you are getting paid for your opinions then I guess wins are okay. If you are like most of us schlubs your opinions need to make you :$: or whats the point.... Would you rather hit 6 out of 9 races and lose $5 for the day or be right twice and turn a profit? Easy answer.

Most people I know dedicate 20 minutes to going through a race and then figure out how to wager that opinion on the way to the window. I try my best to split that time evenly. Learning how to maximize your profit when correct and minimize your losses when not is critical to your long term success. After reading Crists "Exotic Wagering" book I immediately noticed a difference in my play. Having a correct opinion, just like the guy beside you, wagering the same amount, just like the guy beside you, but collecting more money than the guy beside you, that's when you know you can have some success at this game.

fantini33 01-21-2015 07:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by senator L (Post 1013329)
Also, wondering how long it takes you to handicap
10 races thanks!
I asked Andy Beyer he said 4 hours he was also doing
some extra breeding research though

I usually give a kind of breeze through, Race 10 through Race 1....if its a circuit I am familiar with....takes maybe 45 minutes. Unfamiliar tracks take much longer. I wish I could dedicate more time to it but my family is patient enough with me as it is, so I prefer not to push it. That is usually enough to sort of set up an idea of what sort of things I would like to focus on within a given card.

There are a lot of variables to this though (tournament play vs regular play) (track vs track) Knowing your own strengths and weaknesses as a horseplayer can help you to understanding where you should focus more of your attention. Tracking your bets, tracks played, etc.

My advice would be to take advantage of any resources that you can get your hands on. Formulator, Timeform pace ratings and projector, thorograph, HTR. These tools certainly simplify the handicapping process.

senator L 01-21-2015 08:56 AM

Thanks again for your time Ed, knock em dead
this weekend:$::tro::D

dellinger63 01-21-2015 10:42 AM

As a player who loves 'action' I was sold based on this thread and mainly Fantini's posts.

Just opened an account and would like to add that with the initial deposit of $25, they add $10 more as well as give you 1,000 points. I think it was $20 added for $100 and $30 for $200 (all gave 1,000 points). Look forward to playing soon though not today as Dell63.

HoosierInOhio 01-21-2015 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dellinger63 (Post 1013369)
As a player who loves 'action' I was sold based on this thread and mainly Fantini's posts.

Just opened an account and would like to add that with the initial deposit of $25, they add $10 more as well as give you 1,000 points. I think it was $20 added for $100 and $30 for $200 (all gave 1,000 points). Look forward to playing soon though not today as Dell63.

Take advantage if/when when they have new player contests (<1month). I think I won $50 or $75 in one of those and there wasn't many in it.

dellinger63 01-21-2015 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HoosierInOhio (Post 1013375)
Take advantage if/when when they have new player contests (<1month). I think I won $50 or $75 in one of those and there wasn't many in it.

Thanks for the heads up.

booner 01-28-2015 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dellinger63 (Post 1013369)
As a player who loves 'action' I was sold based on this thread and mainly Fantini's posts.

Just opened an account and would like to add that with the initial deposit of $25, they add $10 more as well as give you 1,000 points. I think it was $20 added for $100 and $30 for $200 (all gave 1,000 points). Look forward to playing soon though not today as Dell63.

I joined myself last week. Looking forward to having some fun. Playing as FrankieFigs.

dellinger63 01-28-2015 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by booner (Post 1014003)
I joined myself last week. Looking forward to having some fun. Playing as FrankieFigs.

In the early $100 game with you. :)

GL

booner 01-28-2015 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dellinger63 (Post 1014004)
In the early $100 game with you. :)

GL

Ha I just noticed that. Good luck!!

dellinger63 02-22-2015 01:34 PM

Must say after a month of play, Derbywars has not only been more enjoyable than expected but also profitable. Not sure that qualifies as a Red Board (Since rankings are public #204 with $912 in winnings for Feb.)

BTW my successes pale in comparison to Fantini, ranked #17, and has 10X my winnings for the month.

If you're on the fence about joining, get in.

XIIPointStables 02-23-2015 01:43 PM

Based on the posts here decided to jump in as a way to

-cut back on action bets
-get a feel for any sort of tourney play

Missed the new player tournament by a few hours. Will they offer another one next week?

Look forward to getting my feet wet in some smaller games this weekend.

dellinger63 02-23-2015 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XIIPointStables (Post 1017018)
Based on the posts here decided to jump in as a way to

-cut back on action bets
-get a feel for any sort of tourney play

Missed the new player tournament by a few hours. Will they offer another one next week?

Look forward to getting my feet wet in some smaller games this weekend.

Personally I have concentrated on the $600 game at GP, the track I follow closest. The winner get's $300 and it pays out to 5th, limited to 29 entries with a $24 buy-in. The 7 races if played for real would be a $28 investment and I've found a result of $50-$60 puts you in a great position to cash top 3. One thing I've learned is to handicap all 7 races and decide where limit horses have a chance, otherwise you're forced to chase at the end in races where possibly long odds horses have little chance and or short fields.

GL

BTW finished 2nd both Saturday and Sunday picking up $300 on an investment of $48. Much better than the $110 or so I would have made playing real bets but of course you wouldn't be forced to play all 7 races. Getting 3 outa 4 in pic 4's was getting old. ;)

However, as twisted as I am I placed a cover bet on Saturday to cover the only long shot that would have brought me down in the contest for $2 as a hedge.:zz:


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