Secretariat Vs. Spectacular Bid
 

I think what is funny about this topic is the idea that to even have the debate is blasphemy. The Secretariat group act as if it isn't even a question, that to bring him up against any horse would be a crime. To me, that is closed minded. I'm always happy to listen to people's opinions on horses of the past and hardly ever criticize them as long as they can show some justification. I also am not the type to heap praise on horses, in fact I am very reserved with regards to this unless I see something truly special. I saw that with Mineshaft which was well known on the ESPN board and I would say very well argued by me. I realize 99% of people would disagree with me about Mineshaft but did I make the case clearly and back it up, without a doubt. But what people have wrong here is the idea that I try to convince people about these things. I simply don't....But at the same time I've never given my reasons for the Spectacular Bid call so I might as well now.

Ok. So if people can simply be open-minded for a few paragraphs, here goes:
First let me recognize that Sec. is one of a handful of the greatest horses of all-time. I don't deny that and never have. But I think what has happened to Sec. in a lot of respects is that the Belmont has completely altered the debate about him from then on. If you put that much stock in a single race(and I know he had many other brilliant performances), then you can argue as I have in the past that Riboletta might well have been better than Azeri. For sure her best races were far faster than any Azeri race, but that is unfair to Azeri who danced most of the dances and was extremely game in every one.

Remarkably their careers are similar in a lot of respects. Their first race was the best price you'd see on either of them for the rest of their careers. 3-1 on Sec, and 6-1 on the Bid. After that, its chalk city till the end.

At 2----Edge Spectacular Bid
Secretariat didn't race in a single, not one, graded race as a two year old. 8 wins in 9 starts, most impressively, but not nearly against the caliber of horses that Bid faced at 2.

Bid- 7 wins in 9 starts. Mind you this included 3 Grade 1s, 1 Grade 2, and 1 Grade 3. Let's add in a dash of two track records(as a two year old) at distances of 5 1/2 and 8 1/2 furlongs. Incredibly versatile there was no distance he couldn't win at. As a two year old in September he ran 7 furlongs in 1:20 and 4! Ridiculous.

At 3----Edge Secretariat
Secretariat 9 wins out of 12 starts. Gaudy speed numbers in the Triple Crown races. Lost the Wood, lost the Whitney and lost the Gold Cup to horses he should've beaten. Mind you every horse has an off day. So be it. His Belmont is probably the best single race ever run. I can go with that, except that I have a problem for how it is remembered. The time and the amount he's won by is often talked about. The horses he faced simply stopped. Not one ran on at all. If you want to go by times, let's take a Point Given time of 2:26 and change and he finishes 10 lengths behind Secretariat. Does the performance look quite so dazzling then? Of course not. Graded stakes look: Sec. 4 Grade 1s 2 Grade 2s, 1 Grade 3.

Spectac- 10 wins in 12 starts. Two track records vs. 3 for Sec that year, understood Sec's were also in bigger spots. Everyone knows the tack story by now, so a Triple Crown denomination is whatever you want it to be. Brillant speed, rating ability and his loss to Affirmed looks a bit better than a loss to Onion, no? Grade 1s 6 wins, Grade 2 1 win, Grade 3 1 win. I can go with Sec getting the slight nod as a 3 yr old but the idea that there can't even be a debate is ridiculous.

At 4- Edge, oh wait, there was no 4 for Secretariat, is that his fault, of course not, but doing things as an older horse matters to me if you want to be considered the best horse of all-time. I'd venture to guess no horse in memory has a better 4 yr old season than Spectacular Bid. But lets look at the numbers. Give me another horse that gets a track record at 7 furlongs and then 10 furlongs at the same track, at the same meet. By the way the 1:57 clocking is I believe still standing to this day at Santa Anita, actually is the fastest at any track in history I believe. Mind you that 1:57 was "in hand." I would hate to see if they let him run. How about 1:45 at Hollywood, and 1:46 at Arlington. Secretariat never got the chance to go out west, maybe he would've wiped the floor with them, maybe he wouldn't, the consistency of the tracks is surely different....What happens if they meet, who the hell knows. I would say that Spec speed would've been a definite advantage over a come from behind type. But we'll never know.

Bid- Champion 2 year old, 3 year old, 4 yr old horse of the year----consistently the best horse of his generation each year he raced.

9 races, 9 wins. 5 Grade 1s, 3 Grade 2s, 1 Grade 3.

Lifetimes: Sec.- 21 starts 16 wins, 3 seconds, 1 3rd.
Bid - 30 starts 26 wins, 2 seconds, 1 3rd.

Now comparisons like this are inherently difficult to make and before I did the research the last few years, I too drank the Sec. Kool Aid that you would go to hell if you doubted Sec was the greatest horse ever. I guess it matter how you judge individual performances vs. an entire career. The career isn't that close to me, Bid's was far more complete,(save that Sec.'s turf starts which Bid never did) Again, racing as an older horse matters to me.

But let's be clear Bold B and the other haters, you can question whether you agree with my opinion and I'd guess 90% of people don't agree with me on here which is fine. But don't question that I don't know my sh.it again! Randall

I've researched it myself, and always felt the same way about the Bid.
I don't care what flak I take, he was the best horse who ever looked through a bridle, just like his trainer said.

One other thing, his 1:57 was 20 lengths better than the "wonderhorse" everyone is so hyped up about. Bernadini couldn't have gotten Spectacular Bid into a sweat, he would have disposed of him like a dirty diaper.

I second that.

You may know your sh!t but you didn't know that Secretariat predated grading of races hence he couldn't have won any graded races because they did not exist yet.

Comparing raw times on different coasts 26 years apart is not really very scientific is it?:)

Fair enough on the grading of his 2 yr old races only, since his 3yr old ones were all graded. Apologize for that.

No its not, but I believe I read data by one of the sheet companies(TG or Rag) who said he was incredible, and faster than Secretariat.
1:57, even if run DOWNHILL on concrete is damn fast.
How many lengths do you figure ole Bid woulda beat a horse like Wanderin Boy by?

About 25 lengths.

Maybe not, but if the number has held up for 26 years, there has to be something to it, not unlike the fact that Sec. number in the Belmont has stood the test of time.

No need to apologize, but I would have thought the Hopeful not being graded would have raised some flags!

Only 25? I was thinking 30-40.

He might stll be able to beat him!!!

Lol, yes its not fair that Bernie has not met the top boys yet, but again Wanderin Boy and Andromeda's are just plain patsies. Do it in the Cup against the best. Then we can talk.

157 is an impressive number

It should have, I was compiling quickly b/c I was very pissed off by Bold B. LOL, again, an oversight, doesn't change my opinion of the 2 yr old season but surely tightens up the debate at 2.

Depends on how much Shoemaker had to drink the night before.

That one never gets beat on dirt, NEVER!!!!

All this talk of Secretariat and Spectacular Bid makes you realize that "the best" aint really very good anymore.

Ok, so maybe 25 was a better gauge when you factor that in. My apologies.

I think thats kinda the point Randall is making, and if hes not I am.
Just read the pages and pages of glorification that a horse who beats Wanderin Boy and Andromeda's hero gets. Its a sick joke. yeah he can run, hes really good, no doubt. But great? Hes beaten injured horses with easy trips in small fields in not brilliant times. I'm sorry but mentioning him as a great really defames horses like Bid, Slew, Secretariat, Affirmed, etc. This is a travesty.

Excellent point.

Right on, and mike, you know if he retires after the BCC, people will put him in that category.

Well said. I was starting to lose it with all of the Bernardino goo gooism going on.

I second that!

The "official" grading of stakes races began in 1973 ... however ... in 1972 Secretariat won the five most prestigious races for 2YOS ... the Hopeful, Futurity, Champagne, Laurel Futurity, and Garden Stete ... all of which were designated as G1 races the following year.

So ... for you to say that Secretariat didn't win a G1 race as a 2YO is laughable. Either you're trying to con the chumps ... which won't get you very far on this board ... or you're a chump yourself.

Edit: Randall already has corrected this earlier error.

As 2YOS ... Secretariat was better than Spectacular Bid ... as the panel of experts who assigned the Experimental Handicap weights also concluded ... by assigning Secretariat 129 pounds for his performances ... three pounds above standard ... and Spectacular Bid 126 pounds for his ... equal to standard.

As 3YOS ... there's no comparison. Secretariat shattered all three track records in winning the Triple Crown ... two of which have not been approached after 33 years. He later set a world record and another track record ... all in G1 races at major tracks.

Spectacular Bid failed to win the Triple Crown ... never approached Secretariat's speed records in those races ... and set only two very minor track records ... one at 8.5f at Delaware Park and one at 10f at the brand new Meadowlands track ... only the second time that distance had ever been run at that track.

As a 4YO ... Spectacular Bid had one of the greatest years any American race horse has ever had ... stamping himself as a true giant.

Secretariat was retired while in perfect health ... completely sound ... and raring to run as a 4YO ... only to be prevented from doing so by the evils of socialism.

Spectacular Bid was a great race horse ... but through their 2YO and 3YO campaigns ... the only basis we have for comparison ... Secretariat was better ... much better.

Well I mean, I guess its not appropriate to call a spade a spade anymore. Its really not. But I'm going to now:
Withers- 5 horse field in which 2nd and 3rd place Doc Cheney and Luxembourg have been soundly beaten in allowances since then, not one win between them. Gee swell.
Preakness- Barbaro breaks down, Brother Derek bangs his head in the gate and runs while bleeding and in pain and is rank. Sweet Saint runs like drunken tired sailor in the lane exhausted from a hard campaign and still hasn't run back yet. Third place horse is the "mighty hemingway's key. Gee swell!!!
Jim Dandy- Makes a loose crawling lead in the slop and once again defeats the mighty Key. Awesome dude.
Travers- Bluegrass fractures a leg, later said by jock he knew something wasn't right with him early on. Sets slow pace and beats 2nd place horse with fracture. gee swell.
JCGC- Beats a confirmed dime stopper in Wanderin, and a failed allowance horse in Andromeda. Another pedestrian pace, a VERY lackluster 2:01 on a fast track that yields an 8 flat 6F earlier on. One of the slowest runnings.
yawn.

Please show me the greatness. VERY GOOD yes, great no.

I think it's Bid and I don't think it's close. I totally agree with u Randall that the Belmont has skewed everyone's perception of Secretariat. No doubt, it was a great race but was it as great as everyone thinks? The fact that he won by 31-lengths has tricked a lot of people. Assuming that Secretariat went 2:24.00, that would mean that the second-place finisher went in just about 2:29. What would have happened if there had been a horse in there capable of running a 2:26 as u asked or even a 2:27? what would have happened is that Sec still would have had a devastating victory but the public perception wouldn't be the same if it was a 10-15 length win instead of 31. It wouldn't have taken away at all from Sec's domination of the race but just the perception would be changed. Nobody talks about Risen Star's nearly 15-length win with reverance. Or Bet Twice's.

Now I want to discuss just how legit that 2:24 was. Was it an indication of how great he was or was it a fluke performance? I don't know what the second fastest time is for 12f but what I did was look at the history of the Belmont Stakes, the JCGC, and some of the other races that used to be 12f at Belmont and the next best time I've found is 2:25 4/5. Ironically, that was set by Prove Out....in the race that he beat Secretariat. Secretariat was beaten 4 1/2 lengths that day, meaning he ran about 2:26 2/5. Many people have made excuses for Secretariat that day but what I find interesting is that in that race, he finished his final quarter FASTER than he did in the Belmont. He just ran into a horse that wasn't stopping like the Belmont horses were. And Prove Out GAVE Secretariat seven pounds that day too. The only other time Sec ran 12f was on the grass. I don't know what the accepted translation is but I do know that it's generally agreed by everyone that grass times are faster than dirt times. Secretariat ran 2:24 4/5 that day. My guess is that's probably equal to about 2:26 on the dirt. It's my contention that if Secretariat ran 12f on the dirt 20 times, he's never going to approach 2:24 again but would more than likely be in the 2:26 area. My guess is that the Belmont was an aberration on a super fast track.

After that, when u compare the raw times each of the two horses ran at the same distances, Bid is faster at just about every one of them. And it wasn't just as a 4yo either. Remember his 1:20 4/5 as a 2yo? And everyone talks about Sec's 1:45 2/5 for 9f but that was one-turn. I'd take Bid's 1:46 1/5 over that around two-turns. And how can anyone forget the 1:57 4/5? For my money, that race is 10x more impressive than Sec's Belmont. There are many more races run at 10f than at 12f in this country so there are many more chances for that record to be broken. But nobody has.

I'd take Bid over Secretariat at any distance on any track. Accept for 12f. That was obviously beyond Bid's best but at everything else, I think he's at least a few lengths better than Sec.

Apparently you missed the two times in the thread already where I conceded my grading error on the 2 yr olds. An oversight for someone who wasn't born till Bid was a 3 yr old....Am I still silly, not an ounce worth of praise. All you wanted was a justification. What a phony you are.

Spectacular Bid's best time for 10f was 1:57.4 ... accomplshed when he was a 4YO.

In June of his 3YO year ... Secretariat completed 10f in 1:59 flat ... with still another quarter mile to run.

In September he ran 9f in 1:45.2 ... and was clocked ... by official track clockers ... pulling up 10f in 1:58 flat ... so ...

... exactly how did you calculate those "20 lengths"?

You're not one of those naïve folks who's comparing a great 4YO to a great 3YO are you? Can you cite anything Spectacular Bid did as a 3YO ... which can compare to what Secreatriat did as a 3YO?

Both would have tossed around Bern like a rag doll, hows that?

What the **** is wrong with you? I gave Sec the edge as a 3 yr old. He was better as a 3 yr old. But the totality of a horse's career matters. And Bid's 4 yr old year would've been tough to top even by Sec.

Why dwell on the hypothetical ... when we have an actual margin of victory to ponder?

Have you ever heard of the horse who won a G1 Classic by 31 lengths?

Hint: His name wasn't Spectacular Bid.

Dahoss,

He needs to come back as a 4 yr old. It's really really important. He's great. But to call him an alltime great he'll need to run next year and win the BCC this year.

It was 1:57 4/5.

Actually how many lengths does it take to win wire to wire and never have anyone behind you? B/c Spec Bid has a walkover, did Sec have one of those. What is that 300 lengths? I'm not good at math, don't teach that.

In arguing these two GREATS, has it occurred to anyone that labeling Bern in the same category is absolute insanity?

Oh, ok, let's downgrade it then. It's the world record at a distance they run often, not a 12 furlong race just for 3 yr olds raced 1 time a year.