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-   -   Pacific Classic Official time vs trakus (http://www.derbytrail.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51643)

Round Pen 08-25-2013 09:21 PM
Pacific Classic Official time vs trakus
 
Official Time 2:00.69
Trakus 1:59.26

Big difference anyone have an opinion on Why ???
Looked at the rest of the races and they were all within Reason.

Plus if you go by Trakus 1:59.26 is a track Record.

cmorioles 08-25-2013 11:04 PM
Interesting...curious what Trakus will have to say on this.

cmorioles 08-25-2013 11:14 PM
Most of the difference occurs in the first 1/4 mile of the race.

cmorioles 08-26-2013 09:27 AM
It is VERY tough to tell (due to the camera angle) where the timing starts, but I did my best using the 45 foot run up listed in the charts. Using the timer on the replay, I get the 1/4 mile at somewhere between 22 and 23 seconds.

What is interesting is that just using the break from the gate to start the timing, I get just a tad over 24 seconds, which is the reported time. It seems to me this race was timed from the gate.

So, I went back and timed last years race from the gate, a race which also had the run up listed at 45 feet. I got the time from the gate at dead on 25 seconds, and the 1/4 was reported in 23.61, or a difference 1.39. That is very close to the difference in the Equibase/Trakus times for both the 1/4 and the final time in 2013.

As one further check, I ran the videos simultaneously. I ran them for exactly 25 seconds from the instant the gate sprung. In 2013, Game On Dude is right on the finish line, while in 2012 Riveting Reason is leading and at the same point in time the finish line isn't even in the camera yet.

Clearly, to my mind, Trakus has this right and they cheated Game On Dude of a track record.

freddymo 08-26-2013 09:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmorioles (Post 942469)
It is VERY tough to tell (due to the camera angle) where the timing starts, but I did my best using the 45 foot run up listed in the charts. Using the timer on the replay, I get the 1/4 mile at somewhere between 22 and 23 seconds.

What is interesting is that just using the break from the gate to start the timing, I get just a tad over 24 seconds, which is the reported time. It seems to me this race was timed from the gate.

So, I went back and timed last years race from the gate, a race which also had the run up listed at 45 feet. I got the time from the gate at dead on 25 seconds, and the 1/4 was reported in 23.61, or a difference 1.39. That is very close to the difference in the Equibase/Trakus times for both the 1/4 and the final time in 2013.

As one further check, I ran the videos simultaneously. I ran them for exactly 25 seconds from the instant the gate sprung. In 2013, Game On Dude is right on the finish line line, while in 2012 Riveting Reason is leading and at the same point in time the finish line isn't even in the camera yet.

Clearly, to my mind, Trakus has this right and they cheated Game On Dude of a track record.
Just another example of how ridiculous racing's procedures are..Will we be having these same issues in 2023?

10 pnt move up 08-26-2013 10:03 AM
Wow, given the pace he set then this has to be one of the better efforts at 10 furlongs in the past couple decades.

Danzig 08-26-2013 10:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmorioles (Post 942469)
It is VERY tough to tell (due to the camera angle) where the timing starts, but I did my best using the 45 foot run up listed in the charts. Using the timer on the replay, I get the 1/4 mile at somewhere between 22 and 23 seconds.

What is interesting is that just using the break from the gate to start the timing, I get just a tad over 24 seconds, which is the reported time. It seems to me this race was timed from the gate.

So, I went back and timed last years race from the gate, a race which also had the run up listed at 45 feet. I got the time from the gate at dead on 25 seconds, and the 1/4 was reported in 23.61, or a difference 1.39. That is very close to the difference in the Equibase/Trakus times for both the 1/4 and the final time in 2013.

As one further check, I ran the videos simultaneously. I ran them for exactly 25 seconds from the instant the gate sprung. In 2013, Game On Dude is right on the finish line, while in 2012 Riveting Reason is leading and at the same point in time the finish line isn't even in the camera yet.

Clearly, to my mind, Trakus has this right and they cheated Game On Dude of a track record.
i figured it had to do with when each began timing.
it's the 21st century, with all our modern technology you'd think a horse race time could be done properly.

cmorioles 08-26-2013 10:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Danzig (Post 942472)
i figured it had to do with when each began timing.
it's the 21st century, with all our modern technology you'd think a horse race time could be done properly.
It really is scary. I catch bad times every day all around the country, and probably miss as many as I catch. But a G1, million dollar race? That is pathetic.

classhandicapper 08-26-2013 10:18 AM
From a non "time" perspective, it seems logical GOD ran a very big race. The horses behind him aren't world beaters, but they are solid older Grade 2 (Kettle Corn) or Grade 3 stakes horses. So it almost had to be a solid Grade 1 level performance or better unless you think an entire field ran subpar. IMO, the official time has to be wrong.

cmorioles 08-26-2013 10:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by classhandicapper (Post 942475)
In fact, it lends support to the idea the race was mistimed. I suspect Beyer will change it.
I'm probably his biggest fan, but that is embarrassing. How can he not change it?

Danzig 08-26-2013 10:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmorioles (Post 942473)
It really is scary. I catch bad times every day all around the country, and probably miss as many as I catch. But a G1, million dollar race? That is pathetic.
doug's posts on EVD 'timing' has put me off wanting to go there. it's ridiculous. no excuse for it. and to have trakus, and still not get it right. it's just crazy.

10 pnt move up 08-26-2013 10:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Danzig (Post 942479)
doug's posts on EVD 'timing' has put me off wanting to go there. it's ridiculous. no excuse for it. and to have trakus, and still not get it right. it's just crazy.
does EVD have trakus?

It seems in this case Trakus has it right and has found a human error.

cmorioles 08-26-2013 10:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up (Post 942482)
does EVD have trakus?

It seems in this case Trakus has it right and has found a human error.
EvD does not have Trakus, but the errors are definitely human. It is unfathomable how bad the person that operates the timer there is. Further, we've pointed it out to the track and Equibase, and they don't care.

The one I liked best was the photo Doug sent me of a horse about three or four strides from the wire and the final time was already displayed...and that same time appeared in the official chart.

10 pnt move up 08-26-2013 10:52 AM
Its just another sad case that the tracks don't have much care for the player, I am sure Equibase relies on the track data, you go to the effort to make them aware but I am sure two guys (gals) in an office look at it from a whats in it for us to care about this.

classhandicapper 08-26-2013 10:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmorioles (Post 942476)
I'm probably his biggest fan, but that is embarrassing. How can he not change it?
I think as soon as various figure makers find out about the timing issue they will correct their figures.

But even without knowing the timing issue, it's hard to look at that field, watch that race, and conclude GOD ran a mediocre race. Without that information I would have broken the race out and assumed something flukey happened.

randallscott35 08-26-2013 11:01 AM
My GPS once took me into the Atlantic Ocean, no joke. I will take the official time.

cmorioles 08-26-2013 11:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up (Post 942487)
Its just another sad case that the tracks don't have much care for the player, I am sure Equibase relies on the track data, you go to the effort to make them aware but I am sure two guys (gals) in an office look at it from a whats in it for us to care about this.
I've dealt with Equibase a lot these last few years, and they really do try to help. The tracks themselves, not so much.

cmorioles 08-26-2013 11:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by classhandicapper (Post 942488)
I think as soon as various figure makers find out about the timing issue they will correct their figures.

But even without knowing the timing issue, it's hard to look at that field, watch that race, and conclude GOD ran a mediocre race. Without that information I would have broken the race out and assumed something flukey happened.
Exactly, which is what I had done initially. How anyone could watch that race and give the equivalent of a G3 or so to the winner and a weak allowance figure to the runner up is beyond my comprehension.

cmorioles 08-26-2013 11:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by randallscott35 (Post 942490)
My GPS once took me into the Atlantic Ocean, no joke. I will take the official time.
The GPS knew exactly where you were, the maps were wrong.

Round Pen 08-26-2013 11:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmorioles (Post 942469)
So, I went back and timed last years race from the gate, a race which also had the run up listed at 45 feet. I got the time from the gate at dead on 25 seconds, and the 1/4 was reported in 23.61, or a difference 1.39. That is very close to the difference in the Equibase/Trakus times for both the 1/4 and the final time in 2013.

.
Good Stuff CM Help Me out here I am a Little Confused When You hand timed The 2013 PC from the gate you were right at 24 the official time was 24.19 with trakus being 22.91. In the 2012 PC you hand time the 1st 1/4 from the Gate at 25 and the official time was 23.61. here were I am Confused wouldn't the 2012 PC take in Account the 45ft run were the 2013 PC did not. Is there a way to Know what the 2012 1st 1/4 was with Trakus

Thanks

Bad question I Just figured it Out what you were Sayingf DUH!!!!!!

Danzig 08-26-2013 11:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up (Post 942482)
does EVD have trakus?

It seems in this case Trakus has it right and has found a human error.
i doubt they do, especially considering the glaring errors he showed in that thread.

freddymo 08-26-2013 11:53 AM
If Game on ran a 105 then its the fastest 105 in the history of the sport and while all 105's aren't created equally all 105's should be 105. That SOB was cooking

randallscott35 08-26-2013 11:58 AM
I don't see why the 105 is so hard to believe. Huge figs on Synthetic are hard to come by similar to turf....people get too hung up on this. IMO

cmorioles 08-26-2013 12:05 PM
The top row is the 2013 race, the bottom row the 2012 race. I took a snapshot of each race when the opening of the starting gate is complete and noted the time in 100ths of a second on the video. I then took a similar snapshot as close as possible to the first horse hitting the wire for the first time, the 1/4 mile. Granted, these times are not perfect, but they are very close.

I then simply subtract the time I noted at the starting gate from the time I note on the finish line the 1st time.

Code:
2013        Break to finish                30.33 -  5.64 =  24.69 Reported:  24.19
2012        Break to finish                33.73 -  8.51 =  25.22 Reported:  23.61

Projected 2013 actual 1/4 mile time: 
24.69 - (25.22 - 23.61) = 23.08 (Trakus 22.91)
I think that is pretty clear evidence that Trakus is MUCH closer (and probably dead on) to the real time than the teletimer was for this race.

10 pnt move up 08-26-2013 12:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by randallscott35 (Post 942508)
I don't see why the 105 is so hard to believe. Huge figs on Synthetic are hard to come by similar to turf....people get too hung up on this. IMO
Generally fast figures on turf have to do with slow paces, this was not the case here, and the final time was very quick.

Timeform has it correct anyways, thats all that matters to me.

cmorioles 08-26-2013 12:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by randallscott35 (Post 942508)
I don't see why the 105 is so hard to believe. Huge figs on Synthetic are hard to come by similar to turf....people get too hung up on this. IMO
A horse wins a grade 1 million dollar race by a pole against some pretty solid horses and you think 105 makes sense?

randallscott35 08-26-2013 12:08 PM
The rest of the horses didn't fire. Was stacked up behind with claimers as close as Graded winners back there. Nice race by Game On but the winning margin was a mirage.

randallscott35 08-26-2013 12:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmorioles (Post 942511)
A horse wins a grade 1 million dollar race by a pole against some pretty solid horses and you think 105 makes sense?
See above...I'm not saying 105 is correct, but what does it matter. Would 110 make you happier? The purse is the same. Time only matters in jail.

freddymo 08-26-2013 12:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by randallscott35 (Post 942512)
The rest of the horses didn't fire. Was stacked up behind with claimers as close as Graded winners back there. Nice race by Game On but the winning margin was a mirage.
10 horses didnt fire

randallscott35 08-26-2013 12:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by freddymo (Post 942514)
10 horses didnt fire
Why not? Most of these don't want 10 panels to begin with and there was no pace pressure.

freddymo 08-26-2013 12:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by randallscott35 (Post 942515)
Why not? Most of these don't want 10 panels to begin with and there was no pace pressure.
It's just not plausible that not one of the horses in the race fired a Par effort for their ability. These aren't First time starters or maidens

randallscott35 08-26-2013 12:19 PM
Tarvers looks high to me if you want to complain about a fig...but I don't lose sleep over this stuff like most.

cmorioles 08-26-2013 12:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by randallscott35 (Post 942518)
Tarvers looks high to me if you want to complain about a fig...but I don't lose sleep over this stuff like most.
I have the Travers as a poor race. The point here isn't really about the figures though, it is about the actual timing of the race. Why, in 2013, is this so difficult to get right?

asudevil 08-26-2013 12:25 PM
Jay Privman ‏@DRFPrivman 10m
Game On Dude's Beyer Speed Figure for the Pacific Classic is 109. #delmar

cmorioles 08-26-2013 12:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by randallscott35 (Post 942513)
See above...I'm not saying 105 is correct, but what does it matter. Would 110 make you happier? The purse is the same. Time only matters in jail.
Yeah, that is why the vast majority of odds lines these days can be set by the Beyer figures, because nobody pays attention to figures.

cmorioles 08-26-2013 12:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by asudevil (Post 942520)
Jay Privman ‏@DRFPrivman 10m
Game On Dude's Beyer Speed Figure for the Pacific Classic is 109. #delmar
Keeps creeping up, 105, then 106, now 109...should be 120 by this evening.

randallscott35 08-26-2013 12:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmorioles (Post 942519)
I have the Travers as a poor race. The point here isn't really about the figures though, it is about the actual timing of the race. Why, in 2013, is this so difficult to get right?
Fair enough. Agreed

asudevil 08-26-2013 12:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmorioles (Post 942525)
Keeps creeping up, 105, then 106, now 109...should be 120 by this evening.
Crazy, huh? Whatever the fig, it was a sublime performance.

randallscott35 08-26-2013 12:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmorioles (Post 942524)
Yeah, that is why the vast majority of odds lines these days can be set by the Beyer figures, because nobody pays attention to figures.
Which is why the public lemmings jumped off the cliff with Verrazano off that fig in the Haskell....I liked Moreno as I posted. Pace makes the race. Always.

cmorioles 08-27-2013 10:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by randallscott35 (Post 942528)
Which is why the public lemmings jumped off the cliff with Verrazano off that fig in the Haskell....I liked Moreno as I posted. Pace makes the race. Always.
Actually, he went off a lot higher than I thought he would.


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