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-   -   5/28 (BEL): Metropolitan, Phipps, Acorn (G1's), Sands Point (G2) (http://www.derbytrail.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46886)

Kasept 05-25-2012 12:44 PM

5/28 (BEL): Metropolitan, Phipps, Acorn (G1's), Sands Point (G2)
 
7th (4:06) Sands Point S. (G2)

1 1/16 Miles (Inner turf) | Fillies | 3 Year Olds Stakes | Purse: $200,000

1 Better Lucky Castro E 117 L
2 Modulate Alvarado J 117 Blk-On L
3 Somali Lemonade Velazquez J R 121 L
4 Dreaming of Cara Garcia Alan 117 L
5 Regalo Mia Castellano J J 117 L
6 Preach Tome Daddy Leparoux J R 117 L
7 Zultanite Dominguez R A 117 L
8 Firehouse Red Napravnik R 117 L



8th (4:40) Ogden Phipps H. (G1)

1 1/16 Miles | Fillies and Mares | 3 Year Olds And Up Stakes | Purse: $400,000

1 Cash for Clunkers Garcia Alan 114 L
2 Awesome Maria Velazquez J R 124 L
3 She's All In Quinonez L S 115 L
4 It's Tricky Castro E 122 L
5 Juanita Dominguez R A 119 L



9th (5:14) TVG Acorn S. (G1)

1 Mile | Fillies | 3 Year Olds Stakes | Purse: $300,000

1 Contested Castellano J J 121 L
2 Hard Mystery Castro E 121 L
3 On Fire Baby Johnson J M 121 L
4 Zo Impressive Maragh R 121 L
5 Sacristy Napravnik R 121 L
6 Aubby K Prado E S 121 L



10th (5:47) Metropolitan H. (G1)

1 Mile | Open | 3 Year Olds And Up Stakes | Purse: $750,000

1 To Honor and Serve Lezcano J 120 L
2 Shackleford Velazquez J R 119 L
3 Caleb's Posse Maragh R 121 L
4 Saginaw Cohen D 115 L
5 Caixa Eletronica Castellano J J 117 L
6 Jackson Bend Nakatani C S 121 L

Calzone Lord 05-25-2012 12:55 PM

Grade 1 handicaps for older males and females...and they're only getting fields of five and six.

There once was a time when horses ran more frequently with less rest -- and handicaps were actual handicaps with big weight discrepancies.

However, despite the small fields, they at least still get the biggest names and good match-ups.

Just not as attractive as betting races if you could get five more runners and have the highweight at 127lbs instead of 121lbs for a race like the Met.

cmorioles 05-25-2012 01:33 PM

Just another case where marginal contenders won't run because they can run for plenty of slots swelled purses elsewhere. Slots have killed competition. It is now avoided at all costs with the exception of the Triple Crown and the Breeder's Cup.

Calzone Lord 05-25-2012 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmorioles (Post 863634)
Just another case where marginal contenders won't run because they can run for plenty of slots swelled purses elsewhere. Slots have killed competition. It is now avoided at all costs with the exception of the Triple Crown and the Breeder's Cup.

That too.

I guess that's also a contributing factor why they can no longer pack on 128lbs to the highweight and a lot of times in the past the marginal contender wins.

parsixfarms 05-25-2012 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord (Post 863620)
Just not as attractive as betting races if you could get five more runners and have the highweight at 127lbs instead of 121lbs for a race like the Met.

This is particularly problematic, as the spread in the weights has become squeezed on both ends. Trainers don't want their good horses carrying weight, and with the bottom pushed up due to concerns about jockey weight issues, even the least accomplished horses are carrying about 114.

I've have thought for a couple of years that, if we want real handicap racing, then handicap the race with the theoretical highweight at 126 (or more). If that horse runs, no adjustment would be needed. If, however, that horse passed the race, then the weights would be adjusted upward so that the actual starting highweight would carry 126.

Calzone Lord 05-25-2012 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by parsixfarms (Post 863639)
This is particularly problematic, as the spread in the weights has become squeezed on both ends. Trainers don't want their good horses carrying weight, and with the bottom pushed up due to concerns about jockey weight issues, even the least accomplished horses are carrying about 114.

I've have thought for a couple of years that, if we want real handicap racing, then handicap the race with the theoretical highweight at 126 (or more). If that horse runs, no adjustment would be needed. If, however, that horse passed the race, then the weights would be adjusted upward so that the actual starting highweight would carry 126.

Yeah. Look at how they handled weights in the mid 1930's compared to today.

The 1937 Santa Anita Handicap had a field of 18 -- and Seabiscuit (130lbs) got beat by a 3-year-old in March who carried just 100lbs.

In Seabiscuit's race before he met War Admiral in the match race -- he carried 126lbs and some 3yo filly carrying 102lbs broke a track record and beat him handily.

Discovery was forced to give 20 and 30 lbs to top older horses when he was tearing it up at age 4.

Even in the 70's, 80's, and sometimes the 90's the scale looks very wide compared to today. Zenyatta was routinely giving just a few pounds away to unaccomplished females in a lot of her races. The scale has become more and more squeezed at both ends for sure.

ateamstupid 05-25-2012 02:25 PM

I like the addition of the Phipps/Acorn to Met Mile day, short fields notwithstanding.

pba1817 05-25-2012 03:07 PM

Too many tracks, too many places allowing marginal horses to cherry pick purses... No reason for a marginal horse to ever take a shot at big names when they can crush inferior competition.

Coach Pants 05-25-2012 03:12 PM

Met day or Meh day?

pmayjr 05-25-2012 09:24 PM

When Tizway smashed the field last year, how many did he face? That was a pretty big field right? Although this field has a lot more class to it

NTamm1215 05-25-2012 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pmayjr (Post 863726)
When Tizway smashed the field last year, how many did he face? That was a pretty big field right? Although this field has a lot more class to it

It was a large field, but he was also coming off a 3rd place finish at Charles Town. This year's field, being so loaded with talent, was a tough sell for fringe players.

The real embarrassment are the a-holes who are running horses in the 60k Little Silver at Mth on Sunday instead of the Sands Point, which is an extremely weak 200k Grade II. As Chuck referenced earlier in this thread, there are limited opportunities to gain black type for 3YO fillies on turf this time of year, so it kind of makes you wonder.

clambeau 05-26-2012 06:00 PM

Small Fields in Met Mile & Other Stakes
 
Is the Belmont undercard the culprit for the ridiculously small fields on the undercard stakes card on Met Mile Day ? Do they all want to run on the Belmont undercard, just to say....what?

5-6 horse fields for 3 GI's ? Someone help me out here

Linny 05-26-2012 09:52 PM

There are really no stakes on the Belmont card that are competing with this weekend's races. The Met Mile, Acorn, Phipps and Sands Point are for divisions that won't be represented in stakes on June 9 at Belmont.

RockHardTen1985 05-27-2012 11:22 PM

Better Lucky in the Sands Point. Don't feel great about it though.
Its Tricky, Cash for Clunkers in the Phipps.
Zo Impressive and Contested in the Acorn.
THAS and a little Shack in the Met.
Likely going to play a 2/2/2 with the horses mentioned above. Play that for 10$. Cool 80$. Then press Zo Impressive a bit more, I have not liked a horse as much as I like her tomorrow in a while.

goodcopy 05-28-2012 12:24 AM

Is This Hollywood Park?
 
These fields look a lot like the west coast!
Just another "problem"we face in this "Sport Of Kings":(:mad:

RockHardTen1985 05-28-2012 02:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by goodcopy (Post 864202)
These fields look a lot like the west coast!
Just another "problem"we face in this "Sport Of Kings":(:mad:

Its a great card and its silly to complain. Ill take quality all day. I see money to be made, even with the small fields. Zo Impressive at 5-1, Cash for Clunkers at 12-1 and THAS and Shack being in the 5-2 up to 5-1 range because of the overbet Calebs Posse.

miraja2 05-28-2012 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by goodcopy (Post 864202)
These fields look a lot like the west coast!
Just another "problem"we face in this "Sport Of Kings":(:mad:

Saginaw has won five races in a row. His last two races were stakes victories at Belmont Park. His last race was a particularly impressive performance. He is trained by a high % trainer. The 8f distance of the Met is probably the gelding's best distance.

I mention all of this about Saginaw because he is likely to be no better than the FIFTH choice in the wagering of the Met Mile. That's because the top four horses are so talented and accomplished. I think that's a fairly clear sign that its a pretty damn good race. Not to mention the fact that the horse likely to be the longest shot in the field is a Pletcher/Castellano coming off a 3-length win in a G2.

This sport has quite a few "problems." The field for this year's Met Mile certainly isn't one of them.

miraja2 05-28-2012 08:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clambeau (Post 863977)
5-6 horse fields for 3 GI's ? Someone help me out here

Again, in the case of the Met Mile, are there a lot of other horses out there who you think should be challenging Shackleford, Jackson Bend, To Honor and Serve, and Caleb's Posse at 8f?
I can't think of many.

This is a fantastic race.

declansharbor 05-28-2012 09:13 AM

I like Self Imposed Ban in the Ogden Phipps and MyWordDontMeanShit in the Met Mile for $1,000 straight.

3kings 05-28-2012 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by declansharbor (Post 864252)
I like Self Imposed Ban in the Ogden Phipps and MyWordDontMeanShit in the Met Mile for $1,000 straight.

I laughed.

But it acually helped. It gave me the confidence to single Caleb's Posse at least on a back-up ticket.

Conrad 05-28-2012 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by miraja2 (Post 864240)
Saginaw has won five races in a row. His last two races were stakes victories at Belmont Park. His last race was a particularly impressive performance. He is trained by a high % trainer. The 8f distance of the Met is probably the gelding's best distance.

I mention all of this about Saginaw because he is likely to be no better than the FIFTH choice in the wagering of the Met Mile. That's because the top four horses are so talented and accomplished. I think that's a fairly clear sign that its a pretty damn good race. Not to mention the fact that the horse likely to be the longest shot in the field is a Pletcher/Castellano coming off a 3-length win in a G2.

This sport has quite a few "problems." The field for this year's Met Mile certainly isn't one of them.

Saginaw looks a bit like Rodman, who ran 2nd at a very nice price in the 2011 Met Mile.
In all time form, trying the big boys for the first time, seemingly overmatched.
We'll see

RockHardTen1985 05-28-2012 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RockHardTen1985 (Post 864201)
Better Lucky in the Sands Point. Don't feel great about it though.
Its Tricky, Cash for Clunkers in the Phipps.
Zo Impressive and Contested in the Acorn.
THAS and a little Shack in the Met.
Likely going to play a 2/2/2 with the horses mentioned above. Play that for 10$. Cool 80$. Then press Zo Impressive a bit more, I have not liked a horse as much as I like her tomorrow in a while.

At this point I wish I covered a few of the 4 super logical horses I have left off the upcoming 2 Grade 1's. Pretty solid start either way though.

King Glorious 05-28-2012 04:55 PM

You have to love a horse like Shackleford. All heart. Game win in holding off Caleb's Posse by a short nose. Caleb's Posse is the leader for hard luck horse of the year so far but a good effort still. Jackson Bend disappointed me. I thought To Honor and Serve had no excuse and just couldn't run with the top two. Nice race.

Calzone Lord 05-28-2012 04:58 PM

It was basically a reverse of the Breeders Cup Dirt Mile from last year.

Caleb's Posse got a big setup in the BC Dirt Mile and won big with Shackleford 2nd.

This time, Shackleford got away with a softer pace and not a lot of pressure in a smaller field over a truer more inside friendly racing surface -- and it was just enough to reverse the outcome from the Dirt Mile.

Coup Verville 05-28-2012 05:35 PM

Andy Serling had it right with THAS, he looks great when everything goes his way. But, today he had a little trouble, and couldn't seal the deal.

miraja2 05-28-2012 05:36 PM

Who was the last horse to win both a triple crown race and the Met Mile?

It sure doesn't happen very often.

Sightseek 05-28-2012 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by miraja2 (Post 864459)
Who was the last horse to win both a triple crown race and the Met Mile?

It sure doesn't happen very often.

Interesting question so I looked it up -- I think it is Conquistador Cielo.

Calzone Lord 05-28-2012 05:53 PM

I don't think a Kentucky Derby winner has won the Met Mile since Carry Back in 1962 -- more than a half century ago.

Calzone Lord 05-28-2012 05:54 PM

Good weekend as a sire for Ghostzapper.

He sired a Grade 1 and a Grade 2 winner today at Belmont -- and a nice Grade 3 winner at Woodbine on Saturday. At least 3 different Graded Stakes wins by his offspring this weekend.

King Glorious 05-28-2012 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sightseek (Post 864460)
Interesting question so I looked it up -- I think it is Conquistador Cielo.

That is correct and he won both the Belmont and Met Mile in the same year.

Port Conway Lane 05-28-2012 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sightseek (Post 864460)
Interesting question so I looked it up -- I think it is Conquistador Cielo.

As far as I can tell Carry Back was the only derby winner to do it.
Who was the last Met Mile winner to run in the money in a TC race ?

King Glorious 05-28-2012 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Port Conway Lane (Post 864468)
As far as I can tell Carry Back was the only derby winner to do it.
Who was the last Met Mile winner to run in the money in a TC race ?

I'm thinking Gulch?

RolloTomasi 05-28-2012 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Port Conway Lane (Post 864468)
As far as I can tell Carry Back was the only derby winner to do it.
Who was the last Met Mile winner to run in the money in a TC race ?

Gulch, who was 3rd in the Belmont and unplaced in the other 2 Classics. Proper Reality was 4th in the Derby and Wild Rush was unplaced in the Belmont.

On the reverse, Easy Goer is the only recent Classic winner to at least place in the Met Mile. Broad Brush, Pleasant Tap, Cherokee Run, and Musket Man placed in both a Classic and the Met Mile.

tiznowthegreat 05-28-2012 06:15 PM

Because I love to play the what if game and want to sulk about my toughest beat of 2012, what does anybody think the p6 would have paid with Caleb's Posse getting up?

Calzone Lord 05-28-2012 06:17 PM

Easy Goer actually ran a 0 in the Met Mile on Ragozin Sheets -- a wide trip combined with giving a lot of weight away to the top 2 finishers was the reason his race was so fast.

I'd have to think it might be the fastest Ragozin ever for a 3rd place finisher of a race.

Alydar ran a faster Ragozin than Affirmed in all 3 triple crown races.

RolloTomasi 05-28-2012 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord (Post 864473)
Easy Goer actually ran a 0 in the Met Mile on Ragozin Sheets -- a wide trip combined with giving a lot of weight away to the top 2 finishers was the reason his race was so fast.

Oddly enough, several Belmont Stakes winners in the '50s and '60s also won the Met Mile. Gallant Man, Sword Dancer, Arts And Letters, and Native Dancer to name a few.

philcski 05-29-2012 01:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tiznowthegreat (Post 864472)
Because I love to play the what if game and want to sulk about my toughest beat of 2012, what does anybody think the p6 would have paid with Caleb's Posse getting up?

Probably close to the same. Maybe 10-20% less if anything. Still a nice chunk

RockHardTen1985 05-29-2012 01:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by philcski (Post 864564)
Probably close to the same. Maybe 10-20% less if anything. Still a nice chunk

What would my pick 3's and 4's have been with Cash for Clunkers and Zo Impressive?

outofthebox 05-29-2012 05:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RockHardTen1985 (Post 864565)
What would my pick 3's and 4's have been with Cash for Clunkers and Zo Impressive?

Cash looked like a winner till deep stretch, so i can give you your imagination there. But Zo was never a threat and wasnt close, Nice pick in the first leg!

Revidere 05-29-2012 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi (Post 864470)
Gulch, who was 3rd in the Belmont and unplaced in the other 2 Classics. Proper Reality was 4th in the Derby and Wild Rush was unplaced in the Belmont.

On the reverse, Easy Goer is the only recent Classic winner to at least place in the Met Mile. Broad Brush, Pleasant Tap, Cherokee Run, and Musket Man placed in both a Classic and the Met Mile.

I wonder how many horses ran in all three legs of the Triple Crown and won the Met Mile in the same year.


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