All conventional wisdom may be lost...
 

http://www.bloodhorse.com/articleind...e.asp?id=35360

3-Year-old Eclipse: Bernardini or Barbaro?

"Let's look into the future. Bernardini has won the Breeders' Cup Classic and it's time to vote for the Eclipse Awards. In a move that seemingly makes no logical sense, yet one that actually makes very good sense, albeit in a convoluted way, the vote may very well go like this: Bernardini for Horse of the Year; Barbaro for champion 3-year-old. These are two horses that both deserve an Eclipse Award, and there is no other way to achieve that.

Look at the 3-year-old division this way: Bernardini has won the grade I Preakness and Travers, and grade II Jim Dandy and Withers. Barbaro won the grade I Kentucky Derby and Florida Derby and grade III Holy Bull and Tropical Park Derby. But Barbaro won on the grass and in the slop, and most important, he won the Kentucky Derby -- by 6 1/2 lengths against one of the strongest and deepest fields assembled in years. Forget his miraculous recovery and the unprecedented publicity he generated for the sport. In the 3-year-old division, he will have achieved basically just as much as Bernardini, who with a victory in the Classic would make him as worthy a Horse of the Year as we've had in years.

So, if Bernardini does win the Classic, it may be time to throw away conventional wisdom and reward two horses who both deserve championship honors."

I don't know if I agree with this. It defies all logic. I can't believe that some are actually considering this. However, Bernardini hasn't won the Classic yet so we will see.

I figured they may do that IF Bernardini wins the classic (which I don't think will happen.) I don't agree with it personally. If Bernardini wins the BC Classic, then he deserves both honors.

BERNARDINI, off of 6 lifetime starts, will not win the classic, he just won't. and further,lets let him hit the wire before at least 1 older horse before we call him anything close to a champion, he still has yet to do that.

we all saw what SHOWING UP did when he faced the real horses,not the colts, CACIQUE made him look his age.

Yeah, I agree with you. I think that if Bernardini wins the Classic, he deserves both. However, if he doesn't win or finish well in the Classic, 3 yr old honors will most likely be very close. I don't know though. A win in the JCGC may put Bernardini past Barbaro in the polls, but it wouldn't be much of a difference. Barbaro is only slightly ahead of Bernardini in the polls right now. Usually we have a pretty good idea who has got what by this time of the year as far as championship honors go, but this year, it is up in the air.

If Bernardini wins the JCGC then there is absolutely no possible logical defense of " Barbaro for 3YO champ ".

Maybe there should be a double winner in every group...winner based on merit and top horse in each group that got injured. The Eclipse Awards have been ridiculous for a while and they just keep getting worse.

It is all speculation right now but that will end when Bernardini wins his next two starts.....

Aren't selected members of the media the ones who cast votes? I have heard that a lot of these who have voting rights do not have the credibility or ability to make sound judgements regarding these matters. They ought to let us vote here on derbytrail.com! Wouldn't that be fun (wishful thinking)! If that is the case, I think most of us probably know a lot more about what is going on than some of those that do have the voting rights.

LOL Joel. He'll win his next start, but he won't win the Classic. :p

This is nonsense. Champion 3-year-old should go to THE BEST 3-YEAR-OLD, not the horse who performed best in restricted 3-year-old races.

Can everyone please stop having a heart attack about Bernardini being better than their hero Barbaro? That doesn't make Barbaro a nag or a rat.. He was a very nice 3-year-old.. But Bernardini is a monster. There's a difference.

It would be one of the stupidest things in the history of sports to say that the horse that could be named as the best one in the country is not even deserving to be named as the best one in his own division.

I think Bernardini will win the Classic. I think he is head and shoulders of above anyone out there with the possible exception of Lava Man. But with Lava Man, we don't know that he can necessarily run as well on the road and his last two races were not quite as good as some of his past races. I make Bernardini a pretty heavy favorite to win the Classic.

Showing Up is a different story. Even after he won the Arlington race in a faster time than The Tin Man ran on the same day at the same track, everyone on this board including myself agreed that Showing Up would have no chance agaisnt The Tin Man. Showing up had been very impressive but he still didn't look quite as good as the top older turf horses.

Not many would have had much of a chance against The Tin Man on that day. The fractions were ridiculous.

KYrosesinMay
if you remeber our discussion on this matter
I suggested the same thing as this proposal
and you and the rest jumped down my throat
now a "published writer" says the same thing
and everybody buys into it? stealing my thunder
possibly from reading this very board
bunch of robots! programmed by the media

I really believe that the high weights in the Hollywood Gold Cup and his tough campaign are responsible for his last two races not being quite as good. That HGC race was so hard on that horse. It is just amazing that he managed to win with all of the weight that he was giving to the other horses in addition to the facts that he stumbled out of the gate and had horses attacking him from every side throughout the entire race. I think that if he gets some well needed rest that he will be good as new! He ran some nice races earlier in the year, although I don't know if they were as impressive as those three last year. He certainly has been more consistent this year though.

Like you though, I don't know how he ships, and even if everything goes perfect for Lava Man, his best may still not be good enough to beat Bernardini.

Actually BR, everyone on this board is basically saying that if Bernardini wins HOY, then it will be ridiculous if Barbaro wins the 3 yo title because Bernardini will be deserving of both titles if he wins the BCC. In fact, I believe everyone has said that what the author of the article has proposed is completely ridiculous.

Yes, but what he was saying was that he proposed the idea first that it MAY happen. :p

fact it you posted the article
another fact is I stated it originally
what anyone else thinks is moot!

The reason I posted the article is because I thought that having Barbaro as 3 yo champ and Bernardini as HOY was completely ridiculous. I can't believe that anyone in the industry could actually give Barbaro 3 yo honors if Bernardini wins the BCC and is HOY. It makes no sense. There do need to be some changes made in the game, but this is not one of them.

Obviously the whole idea is based upon a "what if..." If you don't buy the premise, then you have no comment.

If Bernardini does win the BCC, then he should get 3yo and HOY honors. If he's not entitled to be called the "best 3yo male" then how can he be HOY. Voting in a HOY who didn't even win his division makes the Awards a joke.

yeah, but you also have to consider
that you are as dumb as a box of rocks...

I guess that you are entitled to an opinion (LOL) although it is a very childish one. Really BR, I don't feel like getting into it with you. I don't have to because that statement came out of nowhere and you just lost what little credibility you had...:D

Boy, do I have some haters on this board...LOL

Let me ask you a question, if I am as dumb as a box of rocks, then what does that make those who agreed with me on this subject, which was everyone but you on this board? Humor me.

Let's not start with this today. Good heavens, I get a headache just thinking about it. LMFAO :D For the record, I DO NOT hate you or think you are dumb. I just think that things come across a different way on a message board than they do in person.

Showing Up could not hold Bernardini's jock, and while Barbaro might have been better, there is no way of knowing that. Bernardini will win the JCGC and the Breeders Cup Classic, and he will win both easily. That coming from a huge Lael fan. Bernardini deserves the three year old and the HOY if he wins both, which he will.

:D Yeah, I have been a little bit better about it in the last few days. Noone on this board has ever come out and called me as "dumb as a box of rocks" or "stupid" before. That is a new one...LOL:D

I actually found BR's post humorous...And was joking around with him anyway. The question won't be answered probably. I'll leave it at that I won't say anything else to BR. Like I said, I really don't have to...

If I have anything else to say to BR, then I will pm him. I thought that it was entirely inappropriate for him to come on here and call me as dumb as a box of rocks, especially since everyone else on the board agreed with me and I haven't spoken to him since the Barbaro the Champ thread when he also called me about every name in the book. Maybe I am as dumb as a box of rocks sometimes, but this was not one of those times...LOL.

Showing Up is just as good as any older turf horse, but only up to around 10f. It is not so much that Showing Up is so great, but he fits right in with the good, but not great american turf horses. They all just beat each other over and over and Showing Up will beat them one day, when his turn comes around. Next year he should not have Cacique and English Channel either.

Showing Up though, is not in Bernardini or Barbaro's league. He is likely to be another Lava Man type. Very good, but never great.

Einstein ain't got nothin' on you. You go girl!










Oh...LOL.

Oh and Bernardini should already win 3 year old champion. YES!! I AM GENIOUS! LOL!

I think that Showing Up is a good horse. The thing we were talking about on this board after the Arlington Million was how Showing Up ran faster than The Tin Man at the same track, on the same day, at the same distance. So the discussion was about what would have happened if Showing Up would have been in the Arlington Million. Would he have won the race? He ran faster than they did. My answer was that I did not think he would have won. I thought the final time of his race was faster only because the fractions were so slow in the Million. I'm not saying that Showing Up would have embarrassed himself in the Million. I just don't think he would have won.

I love Steve Haskin, but this makes no sense whatsoever. You can't be HOY and not be the best of your division, and I disagree with him that Barbaro has accomplished more then Bernardini. It's tragic that Barbaro broke down, but it happened. The facts are that Bernardini has continued to run tremendous races outside of the Preakness and should not rewarded as such.

Even if he doesnt win anymore Betsy?

Oops, my quote should say that Bernardini should be rewarded as such.

Yes, I think Bernardini has done enough to be named top 3 year old even if he doesn't beat older horses.

I think Steve needs to have some conviction here and not cop out. If Bernardini doesn't beat older horses (but runs well), and Steve still thinks Barbaro is just as (if not more) accomplished, then he has to vote for Barbaro. If he thinks Bernardini did more (past tense, since we are presuming now that this is the end of the year), then he has to vote Bernardini. No splitting the vote, no different 3 year old and HOY. Pick one.

Cajun, hows this?
Betsy, we know how you feel about Bernadini, you've been letting us know for quite some time now.
But for you to tell Haskin what he should think is HYSTERICAL!!!
His theory makes more sense than you telling us that Bernadini has definitely done enough at this point without beating elders to wrest away the championship from Barbaro.
They both won tri crown races with Barabaro taking the elite race, against a field of 20, because bernadini "wasn't up to that yet". Barabaro also won his previous three races, all graded, with the Florida derby being amongst them.
Its about pretty equal at this point. Certainly debatable, but for you to say he doesnt need to beat elders and speak condescendingly towards Haskins theory at the same time is pretty funny.

Lets stay on topic, shall we?

I think Bernardini is a lock for 3 year old champion. Why? Because I am good at Tetris.

I don't need a lesson on morality for a bunch of degenerates
on a horse racing message board
if KY/May wasn't such a whiney little bitch
we wouldn't have all these chilivous men
coming to her rescue

I challenge thee to a duel. Tetris? I will fight for her honour.

it's a new word I made up
ok I give, perhaps what I said was in bad taste
I didn't think people would find it that offensive
then when I get attacked, I come out swinging
so I apologize if you were someone I offended
or insulted