Ky Derby Factoids.
 

What are some of your favorite facts/streaks about the Kentucky Derby? Will u throw out Bodemeister just on the fact that only one horse has ever won the derby that didnt make a start at two?

Scratch thru any horses with a female jock?

Just wondering what are some of everyones favorites.

No horse making his route debut has ever won the derby.

No horse running backwards has never won the derby and the list goes on and on.

There is a first for everything.

I wonder when the last horse making his route debut in the derby actually happened.

Probably never. Sir Barton broke his maiden in the derby no ? I can't recall any.

the first winner, aristides, was entered to be a rabbit for his stablemate chesapeake. believe chesapeake was the favorite coming in. aristides got left alone on the lead and was still in front at the top of the stretch. supposedly his jock was looking around to see where ches. was, and the owner was yelling just keep going or something to that effect.

and i think they used to have the derby on a wednesday.


the founder of churchill was meriwether clark jr, he was Clark's grandson (of the lewis and clark expedition). that ought to answer anyone's potential question of who is the clark handicap named for?

Is the founder related to PBF?

Man O' War did not run in the Derby because his owner felt it was a bush league track. In fact Kentucky's favorite son never ran in the state.

The whole Apollo thing would be kind of a red flag if it weren't for the fact that pretty much every Derby streak has been broken in recent years.

who?

MoW's owner didn't believe in bringing a horse back off of the layoff by what he called "racing in the West"

He spoke of Churchill Downs like it was Santa Anita.

Many horses have won the Kentucky Derby without ever having run beyond 6 furlongs prior.

The filly Regret and the maiden Sir Barton among them.

Aside from the Sir Barton race, Man o' War only stepped foot outside of the state of New York to race twice, and both times were in Maryland.

Man O' War left New York three times -- twice to run in Maryland and once to run in Canada in a match race against Sir Barton (who was rumored to be off form and injured)

Other than the Preakness -- which Man O' War won by 1.5 lengths -- he faced very minimal competition.

2nd start at age 3: Two rivals
3rd start at age 3: match race
4th start at age 3: match race
5th start at age 3: match race
6th start at age 3: Two rivals
7th start at age 3: Two rivals
8th start at age 3: match race
9th start at age 3: match race
10th start at age 3: 3 rivals
11th start at age 3: Match race

He faced just one older horse his entire career -- Sir Barton -- who was widely rumored to be injured and off form.

Racing was in desperately bad shape at the time because of anti-gambling laws ...and Man O' War fiested on one of the smallest foal crops in racing history.

He did have great early speed -- and that's a tremendous asset when you're racing in glorified walkovers or 3 horse fields.

The last 10 years have turned just about everything upside down, with the 5 weeks rest, 2 prep schedule, geldings, et al, but for what it's worth, here are two long standing trends still standing that I tried to take apart.

The "no races at 2".
I think the "no race at 2" thing is overstated, but I do agree u need some foundation and experience.
So who are the ones who tried it in our time:

Summer Bird- won Belmont/Travers
Dunkirk- multi million dollar yearling, got hurt
Greely Galaxy 11th
Curlin became 2 time HOY
Atswhatimtalkinbout 4th
Wheelaway 5th
Indian Charlie, never raced again
Pulpit 4th, hurt, retired
Bodemeister ??

Say what you want, but there were some major talents here and the closest to winning was Curlin, who failed in the Derby but was good enough to win the Preakness and be HOY.

Now look at those undefeated going in:
Undefeated going in:
Big Brown 3-0 win
Curlin 3-0 3rd
Barbaro 5-0 win
Showing Up 3-0 6th
Smarty Jones 6-0 win
Trippi 4-0 (sprinter)
Indian Charlie 4-0 3rd

Gemolotist 5-0 ????

There were a handful of others going back to Mr. Frisky, but as a group, these have some pretty impressive results.

Of course that was my impromptu response given this year's "oddity" as it were. I honestly don't recall a starter fitting the bill in the last 30 years.

As unlikely as it seems I'm not so inclined to completely dismiss Trinniberg. If I told you now the half mile was run in 48 flat with him on the lead what would be his chances?

Before 2011, anybody want to hazard a guess at the last Derby with an opening half 48 seconds or slower? I think the answer to that question should pretty much rule out the chances that Trinniberg will be going 48 flat on the lead.

Of course it would. The question is what if.

It would be a monumental misjudgement of pace on the part of 3 jockeys (maybe more).

Well, we're talking about something that has happened twice since 1970 (because I got tired of looking at charts though now that I look at it, it also happened in 1969). Based on the pace of the various preps and the chances of a filled starting gate, I'd say the chances of Trinniberg waltzing along going 48 and change are somewhere between slim and none. And even if he did, he's a freaking son of Teuflesberg (wilted after a 46.1 half in 2007) whose offspring have an average winning distance of 5.78f (!!!). The other sires with AWD's under 7f in the field are Dixie Union (Union Rags), Even the Score (Dullahan), Indian Charlie (Liaison), Rousing Sermon (Lucky Pulpit), and Proud Citizen (Went the Day Well and Mark Valeski).

I understand and that's why I asked the question. It seems inconceivable and this thread has everything to do with taking a microscopic look at what has happened in the last 140 or so runnings of a race run once a year and why based on the history of this one race the chances of this year's horses hinge on that history.

In 1985 Chiefs Crown had the look of a champion and Spend A Buck had romped through New Jersey unchallenged early on in his races. However the assumption was made that in the Derby he would face a stiffer pace from Eternal Prince and the race was set up for CC to pounce at will. After the race the question most were asking is what happened to Eternal Prince.

Anyway enough about The pace. I'm sure there are other favorite "factoids".

BTW what were the results of the two 48 flat races you found ?

0.00% percent.

He's not that type of horse. Even a horse like Big Drama was far better suited to being a route speed than he is.

Well, last year Shackleford set the pace and ended up an honest fourth. In 1980, pacesetter Rockhill Native faded to fifth in a field of 13. In 1969, Ocean Roar ended up finishing over 20 lengths behind winner Majestic Prince.

Fair enough. I should send you my two bucks.

Bisnath Parboo's career ROI in route races is $1.06 ... he's magic with sprinters -- especially speed-sprinters.

He radically improves the early speed of horses he gets.

Save your stab bet for the next Parboo horse you encouter who moves into his barn for the first time and hasn't quite been able to make a lead and has been fading late. That type of horse will show markedly improved speed in the first quarter and win at a price for you.

If the half is 48, Hansen and Bodemeister will still drown Trinniberg at the quarter pole.

What Kentucky Derby winners won the Derby after their sire died? Secretariat (Bold Ruler); Strike the Gold (Alydar); Fusaichi Pegasus (Mr. Prospector); Super Saver (Maria's Mon). Any others?

Union Rags and Liaison are a couple that could be added to this sort of list. I feel like every so often there were highly regarded horses going in with that trivia as part of their bio, but they failed to win one for the dearly departed old man.

Which was considered a bush league track as well. If it wasn't the east coast, it was a bunch of cowboys.

I heard Sir Barton was rumored to be injured and off form in that race. Can you confirm?

Sir Barton had sore feet and ran on a hard surface at Kenilworth which probably stung. It sounds like he had chronic problems with tender hooves.

That's nonsense.

Here's a Daily Racing Form column from the 1920's.

I'm not saying it was true, but that it was a strong east coast point of view.

In 2012 or 1920?

It is true that in 1920 there was more wealth in New York than any other city. A lot of owners and buyers of top class horses lived there. Chicago was also strong in that regard...and for the period when racing was struggling badly because of anti-gambling reforms -- Cuba was strong.

A lot of good horses in the mid to late 1910's had been bought up by Cuban owners. Racing was going well in Havana. The Cuban Government was also buying up our race horses in a project to breed their army horses during these times when betting reforms helped create a favorable market for buying horses.

That said, Kentucky has always been very prominent in the thoroughbred racing world. Organized racing had been established in Lexington well before the cival war. The Louisville Jockey Club was formed in 1875 (the first year the Kentucky Derby was run) and Latonia was formed in 1883 about ten miles from present day Turfway Park.

From pretty much the existence of these tracks through present day -- they have featured some of the greatest horses, fields, and races in history.

I don't think even the stuffiest of New York City elite would have ever considered it "bush" racing. The vast majority of those owners really wanted to win events like the Kentucky Derby...especially by the 1920's. A few of the very best trainers at Churchill Downs around the turn of the century were blacks. A former slave had trained a Kentucky Derby winner and was the owner-trainer of a Kentucky Oaks winner. He also won a few training titles at Churchill Downs.

In terms of speculating why Man O' War ducked the Kentucky Derby even though he would have been a heavy favorite ... his owner certainly wasn't the most sporting man to say the least and he later ducked other tough spots that season where he could have faced good older competition.

However, his erratic temper may have also had something to do with it.




Man O' War's owner did campaign War Admiral in a far more sporting way. War Admiral did ship for the Kentucky Derby -- and he did eventually bring him back at age 4 where he faced Seabiscuit in a famous match race.

today in history, willie shoemaker becomes the oldest jock to win the derby.

http://www.history.com/this-day-in-h...kentucky-derby

Which prompted me to look for more...

1952 The first coast-to-coast, network-televised Kentucky Derby aired on CBS. Favorite Hill Gail won, giving Eddie Arcaro a record fifth victory in the Derby, and his trainer, Ben A. Jones, the record for most number of wins with six.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xo2sleWPOx0

Arcaro's record was matched on this day in 1969 by Bill Hartack aboard Majestic Prince, who was trained by HOF jockey John Longden, the only person to have trained and ridden a Kentucky Derby winner.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtBuAcOEWc0

1958 CBS used a split screen for its telecast of the Kentucky Derby, necessitated by the presence of the popular runner Silky Sullivan, who was famous for running far off the pace. Most of the screen was allotted to the main group of runners, with a small corner given over to Silky Sullivan. Although one of the favorites, he failed to deliver his customary winning drive in the stretch and finished 12th, beaten by more than 20 lengths by victorious Tim Tam.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oo-sgeHWC5g
(newsreel film, can't find a copy of the CBS coverage)