Derby Trail Forums

Derby Trail Forums (http://www.derbytrail.com/forums/index.php)
-   The Paddock (http://www.derbytrail.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=2)
-   -   NYT Series: "Mangled Horses, Maimed Jockeys" (http://www.derbytrail.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46080)

tector 03-24-2012 03:28 PM

NYT Series: "Mangled Horses, Maimed Jockeys"
 
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/25/us...acetracks.html

Breakdown | Death and disarray at America's racetracks
Mangled Horses, Maimed Jockeys
The new economics of horse racing are making an always-dangerous game even more so, as lax oversight puts animal and rider at risk.


[video]

[b]By WALT BOGDANICH, JOE DRAPE, DARA L. MILES and GRIFFIN PALMER

RUIDOSO, N.M. — At 2:11 p.m., as two ambulances waited with motors running, 10 horses burst from the starting gate at Ruidoso Downs Race Track 6,900 feet up in New Mexico’s Sacramento Mountains.

Nineteen seconds later, under a brilliant blue sky, a national champion jockey named Jacky Martin lay sprawled in the furrowed dirt just past the finish line, paralyzed, his neck broken in three places. On the ground next to him, his frightened horse, leg broken and chest heaving, was minutes away from being euthanized on the track.

tector 03-24-2012 03:31 PM

I am sure the print version of this article will be in the Sunday NYT (which I get).

tector 03-24-2012 03:41 PM


Riot 03-24-2012 03:45 PM

Steve was right ... just a matter of time until Joe Drape got on his ridiculous bandwagon again.

Kasept 03-24-2012 03:57 PM

As discussed and speculated upon on ATR this week and 'Loose on the Lead' this morning, plenty of recrimination in the initial installment. We'll see where the subsequent pieces in this series go, but for starters, lumping Quarter Horse racing in with Thoroughbred racing muddles any coherent conversation. There are contradictions within some of the claims and the cherry picking of certain vet quotes is obvious for effect.

Cannon Shell 03-24-2012 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kasept (Post 848149)
As discussed and speculated upon on ATR this week and 'Loose on the Lead' this morning, plenty of recrimination in the initial installment. We'll see where the subsequent pieces in this series go, but for starters, lumping Quarter Horse racing in with Thoroughbred racing muddles any coherent conversation. There are contradictions within some of the claims and the cherry picking of certain vet quotes is obvious for effect.

Just the initial sub headings are a joke. "Some say a culture of drugs and lax regulation are behind the nations high horse fatility rate"? Yeah some say bullshit too. And the "high horse fatility rate" as compared to what?

Horse racing deserves **** like this for all the morons within the industry who provide fodder for these types of attacks. Keep giving hacks like Joe Drape awards for the rubbish he writes. Keep making public breakdown rates like the public (or most anyone really including myself) will have any idea how to process the information and almost assuredly will misinterpret it. Keep calling into question the integrity of vets and trainers to try to make your point about subjects that are far from black and white while failing to understand that in doing so you are helping form public opinion against the entire industry which is a course not easily changed. Keep using raw data to prove points because it fits your opinion regardless that those same stats will be misused against us by enemies of the game.

Are there issues? Absolutely. Are answers going to be found by backtracking and appeasing the groups who wish harm on the industry (including some hypocrites from within)? Only ones which will further serve to ruin the sport beyond the shell of itself that it has become. There are those who will celebrate the tarnishing of the sport just as there are those that defend trainers who win 47%, because in their minds this will help "clean up the sport" yet none will offer any real solutions. Of course there is no solution to greed, there is no solution to heartlessness and there is no solution to stubborn ignorance. But the continued attacks on the sport will eventually wear down even the hardy souls that inhabit it.

Kasept 03-24-2012 05:21 PM

Nicely said Chuck..

GPK 03-24-2012 08:03 PM

“It’s hard to justify how many horses we go through,” said Dr. Rick Arthur, the equine medical director for the California Racing Board. “In humans you never see someone snap their leg off running in the Olympics. But you see it in horse racing.”

Mind boggling that someone with Dr. in front of their name could make such an asinine and poorly thought out statement.

Riot 03-24-2012 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell (Post 848157)
Just the initial sub headings are a joke. "Some say a culture of drugs and lax regulation are behind the nations high horse fatility rate"? Yeah some say bullshit too. And the "high horse fatility rate" as compared to what? .

Well said. You could send that to the NYT, but I doubt they'd print the truth.

Riot 03-24-2012 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GPK (Post 848224)
“It’s hard to justify how many horses we go through,” said Dr. Rick Arthur, the equine medical director for the California Racing Board. “In humans you never see someone snap their leg off running in the Olympics. But you see it in horse racing.”

Mind boggling that someone with Dr. in front of their name could make such an asinine and poorly thought out statement.

Dead Olympians apparently don't cross his mind.

Cannon Shell 03-24-2012 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GPK (Post 848224)
“It’s hard to justify how many horses we go through,” said Dr. Rick Arthur, the equine medical director for the California Racing Board. “In humans you never see someone snap their leg off running in the Olympics. But you see it in horse racing.”

Mind boggling that someone with Dr. in front of their name could make such an asinine and poorly thought out statement.

I'm hardly a fan of Dr Arthur who is a self serving blowhard for the most part but there is a pretty big chance that this was taken out of context. This is a 3 part propaganda piece, no more or less. Anything that can be used to further the agenda of those people IN RACING that are behind this will be used regardless of the accuracy of the information given.

Let me predict now that part 1 is the shock value set up, part 2 will offer a whole bunch of the same old crap focusing more on thoroughbreds and part 3 will be the "sponsors" of this propoganda threatening more unless "something is done to cure the drug culture". The 3 writers are simply pawns being used by the elitest crowd to do their bidding. All this to get rid of the smaller tracks and lasix.

Cannon Shell 03-24-2012 09:47 PM

From the facebook page of the Bagdad Bob of the elitist horse racing set, Ray Paulick

Ray Paulick NY Times article very thorough, well done. Hope it is not too late for our industry to make needed change. Feds?


It would be laughable if it werent so sad that the intentions of these people werent so obvious for those who choose to look.

paisjpq 03-25-2012 07:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GPK (Post 848224)
“It’s hard to justify how many horses we go through,” said Dr. Rick Arthur, the equine medical director for the California Racing Board. “In humans you never see someone snap their leg off running in the Olympics. But you see it in horse racing.”

Mind boggling that someone with Dr. in front of their name could make such an asinine and poorly thought out statement.

i remember seeing that gymnast snap hers vaulting in the olympics...so there joe drape!

Merlinsky 03-25-2012 11:25 AM

Roger Ebert posted a link to the article on Facebook with this remark:
Quote:

My friend Bill Nack was the first to put the numbers together and write about this, in Sports Illustrated. His article made him persona non grata for two years in the sport. He writes about it in his fine book, "My Turf."
Uh, forgive me but can someone give the cliff notes version of what he's talking about? Loved the accusations of how abusive we are as a sport in the comments below his link. I'd lambast them, but I'm a little too p'od. I'd probably say something I'd regret, and on top of that you basically have signed your name to it. If anybody else wants to have a go, check out his FB page.

Anybody trying to go off about our barbarism in using animals for entertainment, well they probably never thought about stopping all those kids competing in things like gymnastics or figure skating in the Olympics where injuries can be pretty extreme. That Chinese gymnast got paralyzed right before the Olympics about 12 years ago. She got to meet Leonardo DiCaprio though, so I guess we ignore that. I saw one girl get her head nailed on the balance beam, a skater got her head sliced open on the ice during a spin with her partner and nearly bled out on the ice. In 1997, Kerri Strug landed a one legged vault. Fortunately for her, we can handle injuries like that for human beings, but it's not like anything beyond glory for her country was on the line. It's for our entertainment isn't it? That's just on the world stage. Injuries to children happen all the time in a variety of sports. Oh the humanity. Oh wait, I forgot, they don't care.

my miss storm cat 03-25-2012 12:47 PM

I wouldn't worry about anything it says.

I think most people (who don't know a thing about racing) will take one one look at the picture and that will be that, their minds will have been made up.

my miss storm cat 03-25-2012 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cardus (Post 848470)
Will you be disappointed if this series of feature pieces comes and goes without mentioning your "Angels" threads?

I'm almost in tears laughing from some comments you've made...

I am sorry for everything. Turly.

If I'm anywhere near as annoying to you as ummm... some others are? I don't blame you one bit.

You've very funny.

If anyone thinks I'm being sarcastic I'm not.

Carry on.

Calzone Lord 03-26-2012 07:50 PM

The horse on the cover of the New York Times was running in a 2yo MCL quarter horse race in New Mexico with a $6,500 purse...I think Grade A greyhounds in West Va run for purses like that...and dog races at Derby Lane get higher betting handle.

I've heard Joe Drape try to analyze a race. He couldn't handicap his way out of a paper bag. He's unquestionably a very professional writer -- but he has as much business covering horse racing as I do covering the NFL or any other sport in which I have opinions on..but don't really have much of a clue about.

Indian Charlie 03-26-2012 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GPK (Post 848224)
“It’s hard to justify how many horses we go through,” said Dr. Rick Arthur, the equine medical director for the California Racing Board. “In humans you never see someone snap their leg off running in the Olympics. But you see it in horse racing.”

Mind boggling that someone with Dr. in front of their name could make such an asinine and poorly thought out statement.

Really?

I expect nothing less than total asininity from Doctors.

Ocala Mike 03-26-2012 10:10 PM

NYT Series: "Mangled Horses, Maimed Jockeys"
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Merlinsky (Post 848298)

Anybody trying to go off about our barbarism in using animals for entertainment, well they probably never thought about stopping all those kids competing in things like gymnastics or figure skating in the Olympics where injuries can be pretty extreme. That Chinese gymnast got paralyzed right before the Olympics about 12 years ago. She got to meet Leonardo DiCaprio though, so I guess we ignore that. I saw one girl get her head nailed on the balance beam, a skater got her head sliced open on the ice during a spin with her partner and nearly bled out on the ice. In 1997, Kerri Strug landed a one legged vault. Fortunately for her, we can handle injuries like that for human beings, but it's not like anything beyond glory for her country was on the line. It's for our entertainment isn't it? That's just on the world stage. Injuries to children happen all the time in a variety of sports. Oh the humanity. Oh wait, I forgot, they don't care.

You left out the famous incident where Tonya Harding paid some guy off to club Nancy Kerrigan in the knee to put her out of commission for the 1994 Winter Olympics. Maybe in a future instalment of this NYT "expose," we'll learn that Rachel Alexandra's connections contracted with a groom to throw a feed bucket at Zenyatta in her stall. Second the ludicrousness of the remarks made by that vet trying to compare the injuries suffered by a 1,200 lb. horse running 40 mph on spindly legs to those of 180 lb. men running maybe half as fast on legs like tree trunks. How did this guy get through vet school?


Ocala Mike

GPK 03-26-2012 10:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie (Post 848724)
Really?

I expect nothing less than total asininity from Doctors.

Touche'

Kasept 03-27-2012 06:40 AM

Bill Shanklin takes a shot at the Times. Interesting responses in the comment section..
http://www.horseracingbusiness.com/a...xpose-8311.htm

Coach Pants 03-27-2012 06:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kasept (Post 848746)
Bill Shanklin takes a shot at the Times. Interesting responses in the comment section..
http://www.horseracingbusiness.com/a...xpose-8311.htm

I stopped after 6. Good grief.

Kasept 03-27-2012 07:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coach Pants (Post 848747)
I stopped after 6. Good grief.

Bingo!

pointman 03-27-2012 10:47 AM

The New York Times has become an embarassment and a partisan rag. It is barely hanging on by its reputation despite the fact that any past credibility it had is long gone.

The irresponsibility of this journalism loaded with accusations without fact checking is a reflection of the sorry state this rag is in. When journalists at Howard 100 News have higher standards than the Times, it becomes clear that no one should spend their money reading all the nonsense that is fit to print.

My guess is that the New York Times will be long gone before horse racing ever is.

tector 03-27-2012 12:30 PM

Here is their editorial following up on the article:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/27/op...slaughter.html

Powderfinger 03-27-2012 12:40 PM

The timing of that NY Times article really sucked, right before New Mexico's big racing day, the Sunland Derby. They should have been writing about how Mine That Bird won the race, etc. I have no doubt that it was sparked by the HBO cancellation of Luck. Just found out that it's going to be a "series" of articles in the Times, gee, I can't wait for the next installment. Apparently the first article was the most popular one of the day.

Ok, the article had many streches and downright falsehoods (c'mon, Saratoga has a higher rate than average?) The thoroughbred horse racing "industry" could virtually end the catastrophic breakdowns during live races. It would cost money and jobs, but if it's not done the whole thing could blow up. Maybe this will lead to some good, but I doubt it, how many times has that been said?

MaTH716 03-27-2012 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Powderfinger (Post 848785)
The timing of that NY Times article really sucked, right before New Mexico's big racing day, the Sunland Derby. They should have been writing about how Mine That Bird won the race, etc. I have no doubt that it was sparked by the HBO cancellation of Luck. Just found out that it's going to be a "series" of articles in the Times, gee, I can't wait for the next installment. Apparently the first article was the most popular one of the day.

Ok, the article had many streches and downright falsehoods (c'mon, Saratoga has a higher rate than average?) The thoroughbred horse racing "industry" could virtually end the catastrophic breakdowns during live races. It would cost money and jobs, but if it's not done the whole thing could blow up. Maybe this will lead to some good, but I doubt it, how many times has that been said?

I honestly don't think that a New York Times article had to much impact on Mew Mexico's big day of racing.

Merlinsky 03-27-2012 02:57 PM

This guy just posted a gem on the America's Best Racing FB page:

"John Smith: If theyre ever gonna change the sport of kings then the first thing they need to do is eliminate two year old races"

1) John, no, no that's not the first thing to do. It's idiotic to put a horse with a less stressed (and ultimately weaker) musculoskeletal system under the weight of a more mature animal and try to race them for the first time. Not everyone's 17+ hands a la Zenyatta. Most of them don't need to wait til 3 or 4 to grow into themselves and race soundly. Must've missed that story last month where Equine Veterinary Journal in NZ demonstrated horses that raced at 2 were more successful and raced longer. http://performancegenetics.com/2012/...-death-spiral/ Also links to an earlier Aussie study. Doesn't mean there aren't issues around youngsters, but don't add to the problem.

2) You need to sign up for the page "Let's Eat Grandma, or Let's eat, Grandma: Punctuation Saves Lives."

3) America's Best Racing still sounds like a type of feed or something.

Calzone Lord 03-28-2012 06:28 AM

The real and only problem horse racing has is that the takeout levels are way too excessive.

Horse racing has steadily been reduced to a widely perceived suckers game for degenerates because of sky high rakes that steadily rise more and more all the time.

The less a public knows or cares about the sport -- the worse off it will be.

A lot of industry people and execs want to "market" the sport as "entertainment" ... that is a serious mistake. They need to sell horse racing for what it was in its glory days in the late 1800's and early 1900's when the best professional horse bettors were household names. Many of the best of them came from absolutely out of nowhere -- many had little or no formal education -- most weren't people who made their money working anywhere else.

paisjpq 03-28-2012 07:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaTH716 (Post 848786)
I honestly don't think that a New York Times article had to much impact on Mew Mexico's big day of racing.

but maybe it opened a few eyes in state gov't?

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-raci...e-drug-testing

im not naive enough to expect change...but its a start

MaTH716 03-28-2012 08:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by paisjpq (Post 848894)
but maybe it opened a few eyes in state gov't?

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-raci...e-drug-testing

im not naive enough to expect change...but its a start

I'm thinking it's more lip service than anything. Try to take some action before (God Forbid) the Feds stick their nose in. Because we all know how efficent things run when the Federal Government gets involved :rolleyes:.

I don't understand this paragraph:

“What a lot of these people that are doping are doing is that they are utilizing these drugs and then stopping it 30 days, 40 days out before the horse has to race. So… when we test, the compound is out of their system,” Mares said in a telephone interview. “Out-of-competition testing would be so beneficial in catching these individuals that are actually doing the illegal doping.”


Shouldn't they be more focused on the rampant drugging of the horses that are actually racing?

Powderfinger 03-28-2012 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Merlinsky (Post 848803)
This guy just posted a gem on the America's Best Racing FB page:

"John Smith: If theyre ever gonna change the sport of kings then the first thing they need to do is eliminate two year old races"

1) John, no, no that's not the first thing to do. It's idiotic to put a horse with a less stressed (and ultimately weaker) musculoskeletal system under the weight of a more mature animal and try to race them for the first time. Not everyone's 17+ hands a la Zenyatta. Most of them don't need to wait til 3 or 4 to grow into themselves and race soundly. Must've missed that story last month where Equine Veterinary Journal in NZ demonstrated horses that raced at 2 were more successful and raced longer. http://performancegenetics.com/2012/...-death-spiral/ Also links to an earlier Aussie study. Doesn't mean there aren't issues around youngsters, but don't add to the problem.

2) You need to sign up for the page "Let's Eat Grandma, or Let's eat, Grandma: Punctuation Saves Lives."

3) America's Best Racing still sounds like a type of feed or something.

There is a counter argument to the conclusion that the study you referred to , and similar studies like it, come to. The problem with these studies is that they lump all two-year-olds together because , in most cases, the horses that are racing and winning these two-year-old races are the cream of the crop - they are superior to the rest of their class and therefore will have more successful careers whether they raced at 2 or not. Remember most thoroughbreds don't even hit the race track.
I could say that a football player will have a better pro career if he plays college football, I don't think anyone would argue with me on that. But the reason that these people are playing college ball is because they are better than everyone else. I didn't play college football because I sucked. I couldn't make the college team. So to say that Brett Farve has had a more successful pro football career than I because he played college football and I didn't , wouldn't be correct. No, he is the superior athlete to me and it wouldn't matter when we started playing. I guess it all depends what you want to do with your horse. If you pay $2M at the Keenland yearling sale, you probably want to win the Kentucky Derby. I don't believe that there has ever been a derby winner who hasn't raced at 2. On the other hand, many of these Irish trainers don't start training their equines until three, because their goal is the Cheltenham Gold Cup.

Rudeboyelvis 03-28-2012 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Powderfinger (Post 848909)
There is a counter argument to the conclusion that the study you referred to , and similar studies like it, come to. The problem with these studies is that they lump all two-year-olds together because , in most cases, the horses that are racing and winning these two-year-old races are the cream of the crop - they are superior to the rest of their class and therefore will have more successful careers whether they raced at 2 or not. Remember most thoroughbreds don't even hit the race track.
I could say that a football player will have a better pro career if he plays college football, I don't think anyone would argue with me on that. But the reason that these people are playing college ball is because they are better than everyone else. I didn't play college football because I sucked. I couldn't make the college team. So to say that Brett Farve has had a more successful pro football career than I because he played college football and I didn't , wouldn't be correct. No, he is the superior athlete to me and it wouldn't matter when we started playing. I guess it all depends what you want to do with your horse. If you pay $2M at the Keenland yearling sale, you probably want to win the Kentucky Derby. I don't believe that there has ever been a derby winner who hasn't raced at 2. On the other hand, many of these Irish trainers don't start training their equines until three, because their goal is the Cheltenham Gold Cup.

I found this interesting - according to a tweet I got from DRF (don't recall if it was anyone in particular, and have not investigated the claim for veracity) -
The last horse to break his maiden at Saratoga and go on to win the Kentucky Derby?


Decidedly ~ 1962

That's pretty sobering - looking back over the years at all of the horses that have debuted as 2yos convincingly at the Spa and what their careers at 3 through 5 turned out - usually sent to the BC off one prep, then given a ridiculous amt of time off, then are put on a stringent training regiment to try and make the Kentucky Derby field with no bottom in them... Then we see them at 4 or 5 for their return to the track, or they some how make it through 2 of the 3 legs of the TC and are off until their 4 year old campaign.

I don't know and never would consider myself even remotely knowledgeable on the subject, it just seems to me that some are bred to fly early and burn out, while others not only further develop, but improve with age.

Kasept 03-28-2012 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rudeboyelvis (Post 848913)
I found this interesting - according to a tweet I got from DRF (don't recall if it was anyone in particular, and have not investigated the claim for veracity) - The last horse to break his maiden at Saratoga and go on to win the Kentucky Derby?

Decidedly ~ 1962

That's pretty sobering - looking back over the years at all of the horses that have debuted as 2yos convincingly at the Spa and what their careers at 3 through 5 turned out - usually sent to the BC off one prep, then given a ridiculous amt of time off, then are put on a stringent training regiment to try and make the Kentucky Derby field with no bottom in them... Then we see them at 4 or 5 for their return to the track, or they some how make it through 2 of the 3 legs of the TC and are off until their 4 year old campaign.

I don't know and never would consider myself even remotely knowledgeable on the subject, it just seems to me that some are bred to fly early and burn out, while others not only further develop, but improve with age.

The tweet originated from Darren Rogers in the Churchill Press Office.

Why should Maidenbreakers, typically going 6f in August, be some bellwether for Derby success?

OTM Al 03-28-2012 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kasept (Post 848915)
The tweet originated from Darren Rogers in the Churchill Press Office.

Why should Maidenbreakers, typically going 6f in August, be some bellwether for Derby success?

What happened to Big Brown?

Rudeboyelvis 03-28-2012 10:50 AM

Steve, I don't know that it is any sort of bellwether, but most eventual two turn horses break their maidens around one turn. My point was - it seems to me that the earlier in their careers they enjoy success the less likely they are to participate at the same level as older horses.

Perhaps it is such a small sample at that particular point in the year that they happen to stand out simply because better horses are still developing, or that they will have peaked in their ability when the later developing horses are just hitting their stride.

I don't know, just an observation. I love 2yo racing, particularly at the Spa - I was debunking the quote that they need to do away with 2yo racing as it should be crystal clear that there is a precocious segment of the foal population each year that relishes running early. And as such, they just to seem to be able to hang with the later developing crowd as they get on in their careers, with few exceptions.

Kasept 03-28-2012 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OTM Al (Post 848918)
What happened to Big Brown?

The factoid was couched by maiden breaking on dirt.

Kasept 03-28-2012 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rudeboyelvis (Post 848921)
Steve, I don't know that it is any sort of bellwether, but most eventual two turn horses break their maidens around one turn. My point was - it seems to me that the earlier in their careers they enjoy success the less likely they are to participate at the same level as older horses.

Perhaps it is such a small sample at that particular point in the year that they happen to stand out simply because better horses are still developing, or that they will have peaked in their ability when the later developing horses are just hitting their stride.

I don't know, just an observation. I love 2yo racing, particularly at the Spa - I was debunking the quote that they need to do away with 2yo racing as it should be crystal clear that there is a precocious segment of the foal population each year that relishes running early. And as such, they just to seem to be able to hang with the later developing crowd as they get on in their careers, with few exceptions.

I think it's just an isolated and finite parameter. Arts and Letters broke his maiden at Saratoga. He was Horse of the Year as a 3yo. Lemon Drop Kid broke his maiden at SAR. Swale broke his at Belmont in July. Damascus and Chateaugay both started their careers in October at Belmont and broke their maidens in 2nd starts there late in the month.

A random oddity.

Kasept 03-28-2012 11:42 AM

Alan Mann with an excellent dissection:
http://leftatthegate.blogspot.com/20...ournalism.html


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:32 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.