Aqueduct Card
 

Does anyone know when the casino money is going to start having a positive impact on the weekend fields at Aqueduct? Today's Aqueduct card has to be considered rock bottom. 5 of 9 races are maidens which include 4 maiden claimers, 3 of which are cheap statebreds. Of the few non-maiden races, there are a couple of 7500 rock bottom claimers. If that's what they're going to put out on weekends, they should shut down for the winter to take a break.

Not even pumping up the purse of the Withers yesterday (which was a good idea) helped them get a decent field. Does anyone have any information regarding potential future improvements to the cards?

Does it seem that there are more breakdowns/vanned off's this year than in the past?

Get the government to ban Thoro-Graph.

It does seem that way Alan. Don't know the actual numbers.

NYRA has an opportunity to change the system so to speak because the amount of purse money that they are going to have will put them far ahead of every other track in the country. Yet because tracks (not just NYRA) have ceded control of their racing programs to a few large outfits what will almost assuredly happen is they will simply throw money at bad horses, have some astronomically high stakes purses, and continue business as usual.

What they should do is raise the bottom claiming price, get rid of condition claiming races past the nw2 condition, reinstitute starter handicaps, structure the open claiming races so thatthere is more incentive to raise your horse in price than the simple claim and dump which is happening now. In addition they should rein in the large stables by instituting a strict stall limit on NYRA grounds of 80 stalls regardless of what track they are located at. Make owners make a choice instead of just continously sending all the horses to the few outfits which horde them. If Pletcher can convince an owner that his horse should be racing at Delaware in a 37k MSW than in Saratoga for an 80k maiden then god bless them both. But if the horses were distributed among a greater variety of trainers you would see an increase in field size and quality in your better races simply from horses that were already training there.

Obviously in NY you have NY breds to deal with but they can be used to supplement the cards instead of dominating them if you clean up the glut of cheap races and spread the horses around. I'd rather see a stronger state breeding program and NYbred allowance races than a steady parade of conditioned 7500's. This of course simplifies the situation and there are a number of things that need to be dealt with, the backlash from the 5 or 6 trainers that would be affected but PA racing and Louisiana racing is a perfect example of how just throwing money at the same horses in the same basic structure is a waste of money.

I've said this all along. Because of how slot money is dealt out, I hate it for the game. A better approach and I have no problem with it. What is being done now does nothing to help the sport. I'm glad to see you've come around.

Winning $17k for a $7.5 claimer ? That's goodness. It's about time purses went up for all levels imo.

My argument all along is that it is better to be involved than not simply because the gaming surge was coming regardless of what we did or did not do. But sadly the money is being squandered by not being aggressive and bold and trying to put on a better product. What has gone on in LA is that statebreds have overrun the circuits and there is very little incentive for owners/trainers to have anything but. Which is helping keep owners in the game but hasn't made the product very attractive especially considering it wouldnt take much to improve on what they had. In PA you have management at one track that is already outright hostile towards the racing and another that is disinterested. (Pres Isle's meet is basically a farce). You have a horsemans group at Philly that is dominated by trainers like Phil Aristone who want to keep competition out hence despite 300k a day purses, year round racing and fairly soft competition virtually no one from out of town has relocated there and stayed. Penn National has more new outfits. Doesn't it strike you as odd considering tracks in the area Delaware, Monmouth, NYRA etc have a steady influx of new trainers? Supposedly there is going to be an announcement this week in PA that the state is going to dip into the horsemans fund once again and the truth is that they really dont have much of an argument against it. Most days the cheaper horses running there would be running there regardless of the purses and the thing is outside of a dozen or so outfits most of the others have no where to go anyway.

NYRA is in a different situation but with the influx of slot money available they can seperate themselves from Monmouth, Delaware, Parx pursewise by being able to give away a lot more for similar races and in doing so clearly makes them the top destination for good horses. What they need to do is make sure that those good horses actually run at NYRA tracks and dont continue to train there and run elsewhere. They needed to add conditioned claimers, turf sprints, etc to compete in the marketplace for lower level horses to fill their cards in the past but heading into this summer especially with the meet in flux at Monmouth, probable purse reduction in PA, and potentially some issues in Delaware they can re-establish themselves as the clear leader and in doing so can seize back control of their racing program. But I doubt that they will be able to see the forest for the trees.

In no way am I against purse levels going up. However when the purses get out of whack it leads to less competitive racing as owners are encouraged not to try to find the best level for their horses but can be rewarded by simply plunging them to the bottom. It wasn't that long ago that the bottom in NY was $12000. The goal in NY should be to get rid of the $7500 claimers and get a better class of horse not encourage owners to get more of them. I also understand that a lot of owners/trainers in NY have been discouraged by trying to compete with the corporate outfits and simply opt for cheaper claimers/NY breds. Towards end of the GP meet and through Keeneland there will be claiming frenzy as guys load up on claimers to bring to NY. Sure being an attractive destination to owners is a plus but as long as a few guys control all the good horses the overall quality of racing in NY will not do much more than inch up if at all.

I've been saying that as well. Higher purses are great, but keeping the claiming levels too low is turning the sport into an equine version of "Flip Men". The difference here is usually the living, breathing horses pay the price.

It is really stunning that a multi-billion dollar business can have no idea what to do with found money. Believe me when I bring this up to people in the business most either think I'm crazy or they simply have no understanding of what I am talking about. We spend far too much resources on debating Lasix or worrying about starting facebook pages when the entire structure of the business on the racing side has gotten so far out of whack. The dangerous part is that the existence of the sport on a state by state level is very precarious yet the JC thinks it is doing groundbreaking work, the horsemans associations more or less have their head in the sand and the tracks are being run into the ground, sometimes in racino states probably by design. Trying to explain to horsemen that we need to dedicate some of our funds to grow the game because when it comes down to it is our game (not the tracks) and we NEED horseracing to flourish is usually met with blank stares.

Is it because a rising percentage of trainers can't speak fluent English?

No the majority doesn't really matter. It is the people in power are entrenched and don't want to rock the boat. Well in most cases. Some of them are simply morons. The level of incompetency on the executive level in the sport of horse racing is amazing. On both the horseman and tracks sides. Of course as CDI and Penn Nat'l gaming, etc. keep putting non-racing people in charge of racing and the horsemen keep letting ourselves be distracted by bs like Lasix things wont change. They will probably get worse.

Perhaps this is what will happen at next winter's meet. It seems to me that what they are doing now is drawing interest with the inflated purses. I don't know the exact numbers, but it looks like field size is up at least 1-2 horses per race on average. Then once they have more outfits wanting to hang around, restructure the system along the lines that you have suggested to create a better racing product.

I for one have paid more attention to the NYRA circuit this winter and I like the direction they COULD be headed.

It all won't happen overnight, but there is no doubt about it: NYRA is in a position to change the game. They know this though and I'm sure they'll make the right moves in due time.

I hope you are right though have to say I will remain skeptical until we see something other than more of the same or bandaids disguised as innovation

I'm not sure how they have earned that confidence. They were not even able to calculate the correct take out percentages over an extended period of time. And that's where they already know what the right answer is.

I think Cannon Shell makes a lot of good points about eliminating the lower rung of claiming horses, especially given they should be the premier circuit and looking to put themselves on a different level from the rest of the midatlantic competition. Upping purses for bottom rung claimers is a waste of the infusion, winter or not. That card detailed above for a Sunday when they get more traffic cause its a weekend is an abomination.

How come the vast majority of your few posts are in threads that also involve TJFRAB?

I like the change of subject to deflect the conversation, I think someone else pointed that out in an earlier post I made about nyra versus keeneland where you were wripping me for defending keeneland over nyra.

I guess we both are just thoroughly and consistently disappointed in the quality of the product that nyra puts out beyond their saratoga meet. Seems like from the above posts we are not the only ones wishing the slot dollars would have went to a better product instead of more of the same.

Raising the claiming level amounts is going to make it harder for owners who acutally care about trying to grind out a profit.

The "flip men" game is really what gives owners the best chance.

Get yourself a true move-up trainer. Claim from mid-levels taking the best you can find off of trainers you'll improve upon... and if you whiff by claiming something with a lot of issues, drop them. It's a pretty simple game.

Guys like Cole - who can get those true wizards in the Mid-Atlantic to train like Beattie, Wells, and now Scooter - can even take off of the very bottom level a lot and still maintain a 40% win percentage as an owner.

Horse racing today is setup terribly difficult for people who want to make a living as an owner.

A lot of people don't realize how laughably over-priced horses are -- especially at sales. You see horses selling in the 150K-to-350K range at 2-year-old sales every year who you know have zero ability at all. There are horses who sell that well who would be horrible investments for $1,500 because they simply can't run and the horse has already proved so much.

If you could 'short' horses like this as investments it would be a picnic. You're strongly against-the-wind as a bettor because of takeout...but unless you have a starting bankroll atleast in the mid six figures and can get the right trainers at the right tracks and can afford to consistantly take horses well off the bottom..you're just as much against-the-wind as a bettor is.

I'd like to see claiming levels at a place like Presque Isle come down to $2,500. I think it would certainly attract a lot more owners and give them a much better shot to be profitable. More than half of the horses who run for 5K right now -- aren't even worth anything close to $2,500 for an owner.

The fact that you're the same person under two ID's posting from the same IP belies that answer.

Nobody is saying you can't have lower claiming prices, but they should be more in line with purses. If the current set up is allowing guys like Cole to thrive, that alone tells me there is something desperately wrong with the way the game is played.

People don't have to take time with horses and actually practice horsemanship, which is in no way good for the animals. I have no doubt many more horses are sent out that shouldn't be because of slots purses. It also, in my mind, encourages cheating.

Highlight of the day!

Sorry to digress, as I am actually finding this thread fascinating. Honestly.

I agree, but I think I am finding it fascinating in a different way. Sifting through the nonsense, there is a legitimate discussion here.

Unfortunately, I'm guessing Chuck's suggestions will fall on deaf ears.

The current set-up is keeping some wanna-be Cole's away...because they're simply way out-priced.

As I know that you know -- this game is setup so harshly for the bettor and the owner.

:D
:tro:

Fine work Stevie :tro:

If you are running 5k horses for 15k, why not make them 10 or 15k horses? Raising the claiming price does nothing to hurt the current owner unless he is looking to get rid of damaged goods. The purse stays the same, and he is less likely to lose his horse. I don't have a lot of sympathy for owners looking to get rid of damaged goods.

Raising the claiming price is also still going to keep the wannabe Coles out, even moreso.

I don't know that raising the claiming price can improve the product - As Chuck points out, look at the mess in LA. They breed crap to crap, just so they can cash a slot-juiced state-bred MSW check with a 37 bsf.

The horses cannot compete anywhere else in the country, and you're stuck with a program that unbetable and unentertaining.

What do you do with all of the uncompetitive NY breds already there? The glut poorly bred horses will continue to increase as breeders get incented on these purses too. Will be interesting to see the ratio on NY Breds going through the Ocala ring relative to recent years past.

I don't think making them run for 15k instead of 7500 is an answer.

Without some strict controls, they're going to need to build another lower rung facility to race these things, or only pay the owner /breeder awards in open-company contests and remove the state bred restriction all together.

I am tying to figure out were these allowance/ high valued claimers are. I think there are a few more 50k claimers around NY but save the few at FG and GP were are these better horses coming from Europe. Asia NZ Australia?

Maybe it wouldn't help, but it would be better for horses. It wouldn't hurt anything. Any new owner that buys in cheaply and happens to get a decent horse is going to become quickly disillusioned with the sport when their horse is taken away by some miracle worker.

There is always FL for the NY breds, just like the old days.

IMO, the cheap open claiming races are always the best betting races anyway at lesser tracks, and inflating the claiming levels more would basically take away the true little guys chance to own a horse by himself.

I had claimed a few horses in 2001 and 2002 on the bottom (for 4K) -- but I only had 50% of them.

The first time I ever dropped a claim for a horse 100% on my own was on a horse in a $3,500 claiming race at Charles Town named Action Attraction.

The $3,500 claiming race had a purse of $16,500. It was at a time and place where you could get good trainers who charged just $30 a day and 10% WP.

The horse I claimed was dropping from a strong 2nd in a starter alw race.

I wasn't even driving at the time and hadn't had a job job for over 4 years. I just looked at it as making my biggest bet ever at great odds. A true gamble though because of the "for sale sign" drop.

http://www.equibase.com/premium/eqbP...try=USA&race=2

The horse ran dead last beaten about 25 lengths. I knew I'd probably have to shake -- but I wanted to vomit right there.

I go into the racing office. It was shoulder-to-shoulder crowded. Five different horses in the race had been claimed...and there was a 19-way shake for Action Attraction.

Everyone else stands there and looks fine. I'm kneeling down in the back -- in there for more than 10 minutes -- just praying I don't get the horse. I didn't get her. I felt like I won the lottery and I was the only person in that entire room who was openly celebrating.

She ended up not being damaged goods. Made over 200K. Was winning starter alw races with 21K purses and 7,500 clm races with 23K purses just a few months later.

http://www.equibase.com/premium/eqbP...ry=USA&race=12

http://www.equibase.com/premium/eqbP...try=USA&race=6

Is that the worst thing that's ever happened to you?

Aren't markets healthier when they are free?

Explain how that question makes any sense here and I'll try to answer.

If a horse is worth X shouldnt the claiming value be X and nt a made up value? If Unbridled Danger is a good value at 7500 then why make him run for 15k just because?

They have a facility for cheap NYbreds, Finger Lakes.

I'm not suggesting that people simply run $7500 horses for $15000. I'm suggesting that they get rid of them if they want to race at NYRA tracks.

We aren't that far removed from NY breds having 4 types of races at NYRA. MSW, NW1x allowance, NW2x allowance and stakes. Because of the expansion of the NY bred program more classes will be needed than 4 but not that many more. Maybe a NYB $25000 claiming race, a NYB $35000 maiden claimer and starter handicap series for NYB's?

The need to raise the bottom is really the easiest thing to do. The NY breeders will scream about any roll back of NY bred races even if you up the purses enough in the other NYB races to cover the mandatory payout and number of races required are met. Getting rid of most of the conditioned claiming races and starter allowances will be met with resistance from horsemen. The stall thing will have the biggest (and most connected for the most part) trainers going crazy. But what are they going to do? Send a string to Colonial or Suffolk? Try Ellis Park? Most already have horses in KY(at CD or Kee) and Delaware or Woodbine or Monmouth. There isn't anywhere else for them to go. Are owners really going to let their trainer talk them into running for a far cheaper purse somewhere else if they can win in NY? This is the least likely thing to happen and yet it is probably the most important. It will take a lot of balls to try out of the box stuff because pretty much no one in the industry does and there will be a lot of influential people that will be killing you and hoping that it fails (mostly because they like the status quo in which they are part of the machine that has a stranglehold on horseracing at the upper levels). But it would work and in the end would mean a better product at our most important circuit. How it affects the other tracks is a mystery as there are a million factors but it could provide a template that other tracks with casino money and poorly designed racing programs (like most all of them) could try to follow. Or it might even serve to kill off some of them as they are stripped of their quality horses and have nothing but low level races to offer and the politicians finally get wise that the money is being squandered (oh wait that already happening...)

Not all markets. Think the NFL would be better without a salary cap?

There would be no made up value. If a horse is worth less than 15k then he needs to run elsewhere. If you want better racing you have to start somewhere.

I see a lot of horses worth 25K running for bloated 15k claiming purses and a bunch of juiced 7500 running and beating the horses that are worth 25k. I dont see how any of this changes anything.Whocares what the claiming tag is?