ATR Hall of Fame Debate: Gio Ponti?
 

Mentioned in handicapping comments last week about Gio Ponti and a Hall of Fame resume.. Prompted some conversation here and on radio.

Yeah? Nay? Pros.. Cons..

**** **

Pro- During his five year career he has run competitively in more G1 races than any horse of that era.
Con-At best he stands in line behind Curlin and the three (maybe four) filly/mares in that same time frame.

It seems a little silly to hinge a career on one final race, and if it is that borderline maybe others deserve more consideration but wait and see if he can end it on a high note.

In this day and age..He is a first ballot HoF'er.. The good news nobody cares about grass champions in the US so we got to see him race. The bad news an ordinary G1 horse is a no doubt about it HoF'er

7 G1 wins

14 G1 turf starts with 7 wins.

4 G1 turf starts at 1 Mile. 3 wins. One 2nd to Goldikova.

SW at ages 2,3,4,5,6.

GSW at ages 3,4,5,6

G1 winner at ages 4,5,6

What other horses have NOT made the HoF with 7 Grade 1 wins?

I'd vote yes.

Don't forget lost to Interpatation

Ok.

We can't forget Karelian either.

Rachel Alexandra lost to Persistently. They all have limitations Fredo.

Persistently was a monster Shug thought she was the next Zenyatta .lol not really.

Happy to have Gio around that's for sure! I would have him in Hall the minute he is eligible

:tro:

Interesting question. I'd say no but then when you look at some others that are in, maybe so. That just gets me back to my feeling that a lot of horses that are in now probably shouldn't be. I say good horse but not great and I end with my usual argument that any horse or player that there has to be a discussion about, where resumes have to be looked at, is not a hall of famer. It shoud be no question.

Manila -- in the opinion of more than a few highly respected handicappers -- was as good an American turf horse as they've said they've seen.

It took Manila 21 years after retiring to get elected into the Hall of Fame. The 16th time was the charm.

Manila was a perfect 5-for-5 in his career against Grade 1 company. He never finished worse than 2nd in 14 career tries on turf.

He won 3 different Grade 1's as a 3-year-old facing older horses - including a Breeders Cup turf victory in unquestionably the most impressive BC Turf field ever assembled.

* Theatrical was 2nd.

* Estrapade (off of a 5-length win in the 14-runner Gr 1 Arlington Million and a 2 length win over Theatrical in the 12-runner Gr 1 Oak Tree Invitational in her last two starts) was a soundly beaten 3rd.

* Dancing Brave (European Horse of the Year and still today considered one of the greatest and most popular turf horses in European history) was 4th.

Manila won his 2nd UN as a 4-year-old under handicap conditions. He also drubbed Theatrical in the Arlington Million. Theatrical had brought a 4-race win streak (3 Grade 1's and a Grade 2) into the Million and subsquently never was beaten again. After the Million defeat -- he took the Gr 1 Turf Classic, Gr 1 Man O' War, and Grade 1 BC Turf over Arc winner Trempolino in his next three starts.

Gio Ponti needs to win a dirt Grade 1 or a Breeders Cup race or just wait for the 28th ballot.


People bitched about Point Given -- he was an absolute superstar. He dominated the glamour 3yo division in a very deep year and completed a unique Preakness, Belmont, Haskell, and Travers sweep all very impressively and with a bar shoe in the Travers.

He's ahead of Ghostzapper in line?

Never mind -- you said same time frame -- give me an F in reading comp.

Manila is certainly top 3 turf horses I've seen in my lifetime (well, racing lifetime, since around 84).

I have no idea how it took so long to get him in the HOF. Well, I do, because people are generally idiots, but still.

As I said before, GP in the HOF? *&@% *#

Part of the delay with Manila -- and many other deserving horses/trainers/jocks -- was the quirky way the HOF was admitting candidates..

Gio Ponti's lifetime PP's:

I put Gio Ponti in the Medaglia D'oro category. Was a good race horse and won its share of big races, but never really won when it counted and when faced with the absolute best.

If you had been live at Tampa Bay Downs 2 years ago like I was to see his epic battle waged against Karelian you'd ............................................feel exactly the way you do now.:o

Hey Seth,

FTFY ;)

To date, the absolutely worst non-takedown I've ever seen

Now I remember, you had a bit of :$: riding on that outcome. Oops.

How about Powerscourt in the BC, That horse hit everything but Mrs. Crabtree in the Clubhouse(she was in ladies room doing a blast)

It's amazing the stuff you can remember like it was yesterday when it costs ya a hefty P4 payout ... lol....

Who are some of the turf males with no dirt success in the hall of fame?

Manila (took for freaking ever because he was a turf horse)

Fort Marcy (3-time turf champion and joint Horse of the Year once - took for freaking ever because he's a turf horse)


Lure won the Breeders Cup Mile two years in a row -- and was an odds-on favorite to win it a third year in a row ... he also had a morsel of dirt success I suppose (5f track record at Belmont in his debut - dead heated with Devil His Due in the Gr 2 Gotham)

Lure's got absoutely zero shot of ever getting into the hall of fame because he's a turf horse.

Freddy,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDHXAij8EIk

Unfortunately the pan shot doesn't do it justice, if you can get the head on, it's brutal.

The beauty of this replay is listening to Grunder call Karelian "Curly Ann" throughout the race... luv mah boy :tro::tro:

Never won when it counted? Two Shadwells, the Manhattan, two Man O' Wars, the Kilroe, the Arlington Million, those don't 'count'? :zz:

Who should be in the Hall of Fame?
 

You ask about Gio Ponti which made me think of another horse. How do you compare Gio Ponti HOF credentials with Better Talk Now credentials. Do either of them belong? Personally, I think they both belong in the HOF. Problem is, the horses with potential to be in the HOF this century have shortened careers and one can say it will cheapen the HOF if they get in. Thinking with your head and not your heart, does Barbaro belong in the HOF. No, but it will not surprise me he gets in. Smarty Jones and Afleet Alex are two others with shortened careers that could be put in same category as Barbaro, even though their credentials are better. Both won 2/3 of the Triple Crown but did not race after the Belmont Stakes, so record wise, I'd say both are better than Charismatic and he isnt in the HOF. But with a lack of quality horses becoming eligible in a few years, I can see one or all three getting in.

Other than Manila and Fort Marcy -- who are the other turf males in the Hall of Fame without any dirt racing success?

Better Talk Now will never get in.

:tro:

English Channel won 6 Grade 1's -- including the BC Turf -- and thankfully no one thinks he deserves consideration.

Though -- he was better than Gio Ponti and Better Talk Now.

What about Lava Man?

3 Hollywood Gold Cup, 2 Santa Anita Handicaps, 1 Pacific Classic ... a Grade 1 winner on dirt, turf, and synthetic.

His collection of wins absolutely dwars Gio Ponti and his resume was mostly all dirt.

He should have been a 1st ballot Hall of Famer if Gio Ponti is a lock to get in.

Lava Man will get in, but it will be curious to see how he is treated, because of the never winning outside of California angle. Look how long it took Sky Beauty to get in and she basically had the same rap against her. No one is saying Gio and BTN are first ballot, but I think they will eventually get in. First ballot will be reserved for the extraordinary horses like the tag team in five years when they become eligible, Rachel and Zenyatta.

32 posts into a HoF debate before a Zenyatta reference - it's getting better.




Maybe the barometer should be ANY horse that ever finished within a length of Zenyatta gets in - no problem,,, Gio Pointi would make it (barely) on that criteria alone. ;):rolleyes:;)

Anabaa's Creation is HOF bound in that case. I dunno, I'm torn. When I try to explain why he shouldn't be, I end up talking myself into it, but when I try to say he should get in, I see flaws in the argument. Not that he has to be breaking course/stakes records right and left to get in the HOF, but out of curiosity, does he have any?

At first I wondered why anybody was assuming he'd get in the HOF, but when you look at his accomplishments and the time he's been putting them together, it's hard not to have a lot of respect for him and think 'well if not Gio Ponti, then who?' I know this is the US HOF, but American turf runners still have the shadow of the Europeans looming in terms of their quality. Is that having an impact here? This isn't a competition for tallest midget by any means, but does it seem like standing out here is treated with less respect? Is it a sense of big fish/small pond that's unfair to Gio Ponti? Should how American horses compare to the Euros even matter here?

"... and Gio Ponti is the leader....

Interpatation trying to come back at him...

With one furlong to go...

Interpatation is a stubborn foe...

GIO PONTI HAS LOST THE LEAD!

GIO PONTI HAS LOST THE LEAD!"

:D

I don't care either way... I'm just still so happy I got to live through that and didn't imagine it!

... and Kev in three..... two...... one....

Running in the same race as Dinner In Odem = Auto disqualification from even having your name mentioned for the HOF.

IMO, for one of our turf horses to be in the Hall of Fame -- they would need to be persumed good enough that if they went to Europe they could likely emerge as the best horse campaigning there.

I think that's mainly what people voting in the poll aren't getting -- turf accomplishments are viewed with much less importance than dirt accomplishments. Historical precedence... and it's not exactly like our top class turf horses have done anything in the last 15 years that should change that discrimination.

That's exactly what my issue is. I don't know that he'd be in the absolute top tier in Europe and there've been other amazing turf horses worldwide, so what are we saying here? Comparing to other US turf horses is one thing. If you look at Goldikova, Frankel, Sea the Stars, Makybe Diva, Zarkava, Vodka ...is he in that breath and does he have to be? I know they're still leaning Mile, but I still wonder (like Haskin) whether the Classic might make a lot of sense for him. If you want to take a turfer onto a main track, I'd think this would be the place to do it, esp at the 1 1/4. I bet he could put in a terrific showing in the Mile, but you have to count on a Goldikova regression. For stallion value, for HOF status, and let's not forget for more money, there's an opportunity here for Gio Ponti in the BCC.

When I think of a Hall of Fame horse, I think of a horse that has a career that is a step above what you see from your garden variety Eclipse winner. Except for four races spread over six months in 2009, Gio Ponti has not struck me as a dominant runner. He runs a big race here and there, but his PPs are peppered with a lot of second and third place finishes. Assuming each horse brought their "A" game, Gio Ponti would have had his hands full if he had faced the likes of Sunshine Forever, Steinlen, Star of Cozzene, Paradise Creek, and Kotashaan, and I don't consider any of those to be Hall of Fame horses.

Every one of those horses you just named would have slaughtered GP, except for maybe Sunshine Forever.

Kotashaan probably should have been a HOF horse.