If he wins - will they put him in the Hall of Fame?
 

No but he might the 2013 "Beefcake" calendar.

His credentials are just as good if not better than Borel's, hell he won a triple crown, isn't that enough to get in? :rolleyes:

At least Borel has delivered several Hall of Fame worthy rides in big races. Winning an Arkansas Derby on 100/1+ Rockamundo and a Gr 1 in the Foster on the beyond impossible Seek Gold among others - not to mention his incredible record in the Ky Derby.

Alex Solis has made an entire career out of being about the 5th-to-12th best rider in the room on the So. Cal circuit. Unlike Jorge Chavez, he's never won a KY Derby - unlike Jorge Chavez - he's never won an eclipse for outstanding jockey.

How big of a joke is it that Alex Solis almost got in last year ... and Ghostzapper (unarguably the best horse in the last 12 to 15 years - and unquestionably the best horse Frankel ever trained) didn't even make the 'nomination to vote on' cut?

This is pretty solid trolling Shelby, so I'll bite.

Solis has racked up over $220 million in purses by being the 5th-12th best rider in So Cal? I laughed.

Solis missed winning the '97 Derby by a pimple. He's won pretty much every big race here (except for the Derby 'sup Stewart Elliot) and a Dubai World Cup.

So what if Borel only trails him by a hundred million or so in purses for his career, he won the Arkansas Derby on a longshot, so let's vote him in.

Current Hall of Famers - from the So. Cal jockey colony who accomplished more than Alex Solis while riding many years against him:

Kent Desormeaux, Gary Stevens, Eddie Delahousse, Chris McCarron, Pincay Jr. (even as old man he was much better) - Mike Smith (even as a wash up - he's accomplished more than Solis since he's moved out there)

Non Hall of Famers - from the So. Cal room - who are better than Alex Solis:

Pat Valenzula, Garret Gomez, Joel Rosario, Victor Espinoza, Rafeal Bejarano, Corey Nakatani - all unquestionably better.

Hell, Julie Krone was doing better than him when she went out there.


I know it might seem I have a prejudice against Solis for being a below takeout ROI guy for his entire career - he was always massively overrated... but he sure did have a nice personality and kept in great barns.

It's not like I'm a fan of Jorge Chavez - but he was a better jockey than Solis day-to-day. He won the sports biggest event. And he won the biggest honor a rider can get (eclipse award for outstanding jockey that year) - if Solis is deserving - why not Chavez?

If it was up to me ... there would be about five jockeys in the Hall of Fame total.

In all fairness to Dougie, his entire post was ridiculous, not just what you pointed out.

Yes - because you think Ghostzapper was a bum - I know.

You really think he's less deserving of a vote than Alex Solis, Borel, Gomez (a one-time junkie who I always defended as a good rider when he was failing to break the top 10 in So. Cal year in and year out)

I won't disagree with that. And I don't even care for Alex Solis, however he has had a better career than Borel, it's not even close, and has always been a better day to day rider than Borel.

What kind of career would Borel have had if he had been riding in So. Cal? I think we can both agree not very good.

But I also think you are underrating Solis. The guy won 6 straight meets in So Cal from Hollywood Spring of '96 to Hollywood Spring on '97. I'm not really sure how the 5th-12th best rider in the room is able to pull something like that off, but he must've had a hell of an agent.

I liked Chavez before he forgot how to ride, so I'd have to look at what his career looks like.

Solis was probably a very hard worker - and certainly seems to have a great personality. He also rode a lot of short prices in cheaper type races. He'd even ride Fairplex a little.


I always viewed Chavez as sort of like an east coast version of Nakatani and Solis.

Chavez:

* leading rider in New York for 6 consecutive years from 1994 through 1999

* Won 12 riding titles at NYRA meets

* Leading rider at Gulfstream in 1989, 1999, 2000 and 2001

* Eclipse award for years outstanding jockey in 1999

* 2001 Kentucky Derby win on Monarchos

I never said he was a bum. But cmon man, best horse of the last 15 years?

Unarguably?

Solis was better than some of those jocks you listed as better than him too.

I will agree though that there should be very few of them in the HOF.

Solis should be one of those five in the HOF just for the ass whoopin he gave Nakatani.

Chavez was more the guy that was winning a lot of cheap races with short prices. All of those years he was leading rider in NY he never earned more than $10 million in purses with the exception of his monster year in 1999.

Solis was a $10 million plus guy every year from 1996 to his monster year in 2003.

Chavez is well behind Solis in wins and earnings, but he was pretty solid rider for a long time. If Borel deserves to be in, so does Chavez.

And Solis owes me something for how much I have stuck up for him the past few days.

If you compared ROI's - Chavez routinely destroyed him.

It's real easy to forget now - but there were a lot people who would argue Chavez was as good as Bailey and better than Mike Smith and John Velazquez before the Bobby Frankel and Todd Pletcher machine got going like crazy ... the Frankel business went to Bailey - and Mike Smith was first Pletcher's go to guy until JRV took over that role in the very late 90's or maybe 2000.

That earnings stuff is crap imo. It's even worse than riding titles. Guys like Johnny V. can take everything wide and put up horrid ROI numbers on the turf - and they'll still look like champions because he's on Pletcher's best.

Chavez's most powerful client was like John Ward.

A. I know who rode for who, and you know I do.
B. The earnings stuff is crap because it doesn't help your point, had it favored Chavez, you would have used it.
C. Didn't you use riding titles for 3 of your examples as to Chavez's quality? Which one is it?
D. It's okay to admit you were wrong, we all are every once in awhile.

Most Pointless Debate in DT History

Nowhere near as pointless as anyone paying you to be some sort of "expert" in this industry.

What?

He gets paid for his bad opinions?

Is this some sort of belated April Fools joke?

You are an unbridled moron if you equate being paid as a blogger to being paid as an expert.

I love it when people jump aboard the bandwagon to bash me without having any idea of what my job was.

Yeah, I thought you were a blogger.

Whew.

The fact that you get paid anything related to this industry is an injustice. Please feel free to continue to tell us what horses you love in a race like you did Sunday so I can toss them. I would ask that you do it before a multi race sequence so I can adjust accordingly.

I guess you missed the San Felipe contest.

I'm not a Chavez fan at all.

I don't think he or Solis deserve any consideration. That's all.

Not sure what you think I was wrong about. Maybe my opinion that Chavez was WAY better than Solis. If that's what you think I'm wrong about ... I don't care.

You were wrong about Solis. The 5th-12th best rider in a room doesn't win 6 straight meets in a major circuit.

I don't care if any of them get in ever. My only point is, if toothy should get in, then Solis REALLY deserves to.

Ok - lets look at the Graded Stakes wins for the six meets consisting of that streak. Keep in mind - Solis won riding titles at all six of them.



'95-'96 Santa Anita winter meet: Graded Stakes wins

Stevens: 10
Antley: 7
Nakatani: 7
McCarron: 7
Delahoussaye: 5
Solis: 3
Desormeaux: 3


'96 Hollywood Park Spring meet: Graded Stakes wins

Nakatani: 7
McCarron: 6
Delahoussaye: 5
Desormeaux: 4
Antley: 2
Flores: 2
Bailey: 1
Solis: 1


'96 Del Mar meet: Graded Stakes wins:

Nakatani: 5
Antley: 3
McCarron: 3
Douglas: 2
Solis: 2
4 tied with 1


'96 Oak Tree meet: Graded Stakes wins:

McCarron: 4
Nakatani: 3
Garcia: 1
Delahoussaye: 1
Fires: 1
Desormeaux: 1
Antley: 1
Stevens: 1
Solis: 0


'96 Hollywood Fall meet: Graded Stakes wins:

Stevens: 3
McCarron: 3
Nakatani: 3
Solis: 2
Delahoussaye: 1
Velazquez: 1
Day: 1


'96-'97 Santa Anita winter meet: Graded Stakes wins:

Nakatani: 11
McCarron: 6
Stevens: 5
Flores: 3
Delahoussaye: 3
Desormeaux: 2
Solis: 2
Garcia: 1
Bailey: 1
Blanc: 1
Silva: 1
Almeida: 1
Black: 1
Douglas: 1



Basically - Solis was making his living in Cal Bred races and claiming races. The kind of races that already rich vets like Stevens, Eddie D, McCarron, and Desormeaux all wanted pretty much no part of.

Over that span - the younger Nakatani won 36 Graded Stakes to just 10 for Solis.

Chris Antley - who I honestly didn't even remember riding in So. Cal in the mid 90's - won more big races.

This begs the question - if Solis was truely one of the four best riders in the room during this time .... how come he wasn't getting it done in the big races?

It's that tough to admit, huh?

You want to keep changing the rules until you're somewhat redeemed, as now only winning graded stakes counts. We both know Borel can't compare to Solis in that aspect and I'm sure Chavez can't either.

But I'm interested in seeing a breakdown of Chavez's glory years and how his graded stakes wins compares with the other riders in his colony.

I'm just glad I learned the only races run in Southern California in the 90's were graded stakes, Cal Bred races and claiming races (apparently MSW's and allowance races didn't come along until the 21st century).

If you bet those races - you'd know how brutal Solis was.

Everyone knocks Russell Baze for winning those type of races in No. Cal - but Russell was obviously a much better jockey than Solis.

Yeah that's it. I didn't bet then.

You didn't remember Antley rode in So Cal then, but you remember how bad Solis was.

:wf

I thought OTB's in New York didn't start showing Southern Cal racing until the late 90's?

Not only did the good people of Erie have the full card So. Cal circuit races on our local cable station as early as 1992 (before racing on the Internet) ... but the Erie OTB also started taking full card on So. Cal - and about 20-to-25 other track as early as 1992 or 1993.

Either way ... it's not like Solis has improved any.

Your debating skills today rival those of Pippy.

Perhaps Hossy should award you the iron fist for debate skill?

I will never rival Pippy.

The following column describes the career of Alex Solis in a lot of ways ...

http://www.drf.com/news/chavez-deserves-new-nickname-0

However,

* Solis is not aggressive

* Gamblers hated him instead of loved him

* Solis never won a Kentucky Derby with a "smooth, flawless, tactical performance"

* Solis never won an Eclipse award for being the nations best rider for a full year.

Sadly - Solis did have a longer and more steady career on a tougher year-round circuit. He had far fewer peaks and valleys than Chavez. He was always that 5th to 12th best guy in the Jock's room. You know - the rider that you can often count on to screw one up - but still always look like a well polished pro while he's butchering a ride.


Of course - IC loves Solis because he beat the hell out of Nakatani after Nakatani pushed another jockey off a horse during the gallop-out.

I always liked Solis, relative to other jockeys, that is.

It's really not possible for me to 'love' a jockey. I guess the closest would be Pincay.

Being the go to guy for Mel Stute is hardly the same thing as being the go to guy for Frankel, Lukas, Baffert, etc.

All that aside, your tenaciousness on this topic certainly does rival Pippy's incessant belief that the other person is wrong.

He's the only person to ever outlast you in a horse argument.

Today, you are Pip.

Tell me you really don't think Chavez was better than Solis.

Who would you rather have on your horse?

I wouldn't even consider either of them now. Chavez, in his day, was better though because he was a very good front-end rider and the greatest wet track jockey I've ever seen. He beat me countless times stealing races on the front at Gulfstream. He owned the old Gulfstream.

I never liked Solis on speed - hated him as a gate rider - and even though he has a reputation as a strong finisher who is good on deep closers .. I think he makes a lot of poorly timed wide moves.

They both have no business in the Hall of Fame.

Solis was never even a finalist for the Eclipse Award. Think about that for a second ... he's been established since 1984 ... and he never once was 1st, 2nd, or 3rd in the voting points for best season by a jockey.

Trivia question.

Who got voted HOY in 2010?

We got full card for a ton of tracks by '94 or '95, maybe before.

Either way it doesn't make your point any less wrong. Just another attempt to move the goal posts.

Just to put an end to this on my end (I'm bored, but not this bored) I'm fine if none of them ever get in.

But if Borel should get in, so should Solis based on their career numbers. Chavez doesn't even belong in the discussion despite him beating DrugS on the front end at Gulfstream.

Is it too early for a drink?

It's never too early for a drink. ;)

I don't have 1/1000th the horse racing knowledge of these two combatants, but doesn't winning three different Derbies kind of trump 3,821 SoCal riding titles, at least in the eyes of turf writers?

If you think Borel should be in, it's the only reason he would deserve it over the other guys IMO, and I get that. I don't agree, but I can see it.