Bernardini
 

Bernardini's sire A. P. Indy has long emerged as the best dirt route sire out there. He's by Seattle Slew out of a Secretariat mare - which means two triple crown winners and no Mr. Prospector or Storm Cat.

A. P. Indy




Bernardini's dam Cara Rafaela was an extremely precocious route horse. She was a close 2nd in the BC Juvie fillies and won a strong Grade 1 as a 2yo - and her career quickly went to absolute sh!t. Though she was able to win a division of a 39K restricted stakes at Fairplex as an older horse.

CARA RAF:



Cara Rafaela's half brother was the wickedly fast So. Cal sprinter from the Mid 90's Abaginone.



Even though Bernardini's race record is similar to A. P. Indy's (Bernardini was the better race horse of the two by the way) I have my doubts his offspring tendencies will be similar.. especially with what I've seen from his first crop.

Bernardini's offspring are looking quicker and a lot better suited to sprinting than A. P. Indy's. He's only had one crop race so far - and the best horses have been To Honor and Serve, A. P. Warrior, Stay Thirsty, and Biondetti ... but you'd think he's already proven himself a great stallion.

Hopefully a lot of his good offspring don't develop like his mom did. Interesting to follow - because he could be either the next all-time great stallion - or a just a very good stallion who sires a lot of well bred flash in the pan types that look real promising and fizzle.

I'm still annoyed at the Sheikh retiring this horse before he'd had a chance to really prove himself, but yeah - he was a tremendous racehorse (though I still think Pulpit was Indy's most brilliant).

As to your last point, I suppose we can say that about any sire. This topic was brought up on another board, but lots of stallions got off to fine starts only to fizzle. I certainly have the highest hopes for Bernardini, so obviously I hope that he takes after his sire and not his dam. Indy is proving to be a very good sire of sires and even Mineshaft, who got off to a slow start as a sire, is doing well now.

I agree that Bernardini is imparting more speed to his offspring than Indy, but I'm not sure they are more suited to sprinting - it's not like he's imparting crazy speed (though I think Crossbow will end up being a sprinter/miler - he's very fast). It's just that they all seem to have tactical speed, which is certainly an advantage (though Indy hasn't done badly thus far, lol). So far this year, he's had some runners who have not run well, but he's also had some show very good promise (Crossbow, Cassini Flight, Heron Lake and Break up the Game - yes, I know the latter is still a maiden- and another maiden, a Pletcher filly named R Gypsy Gold). I guess we'll find out soon enough if his best offspring have trained on because Stay Thirsty (I know he's not well thought of here) is set to work this weekend (and his first race back will be in the Gotham), AZ Warrior will return in the Las Virgenes most likely and hopefully To Honor and Serve will make the FOY. Unfortunately we'll have to follow Biondetti (who is a particular favorite of mine) from afar. One thing Bernardini has over AP Indy is that his offspring (at least in Europ) have handled turf and synthetics.

You are, as I'm sure you know, wrong about Indy vs Bernardini. Drysdale wasn't even close to getting to the bottom of his horse.


AP Indy in his first crop had spectacular first time out winner A P Assay, whom I believe broke her maiden going 4.5f in track record time at HP. In his second crop, he had the ultra fast Old Trieste.

You probably would have been saying the same thing about Indy back then as what you are saying now about Bernardini.

By the way, I'm pretty sure AP Warrior was by AP Indy. I'm guessing you meant AZ.

I agree.
the tail wags the dog with the Sheiks.
They spent hundreds of millions trying to breed a colt like Bernardini.
Then they retired him as soon as possible..:zz:

AP Assay was a very good filly, but unsound if I recall.......and you're right about Old Trieste. What a shame he died early. I see a lot on the boards about Indy siring only plodders ..if so, he's made a hell of a nice career out of it.

Bernardini was supremely talented - and he gets knocked for finishing 2nd as 3 year old to a great older horse. I can't say he was for sure better than Indy, but it's possible....

Yep......imagine what he could have done as a 4 year old. I guess he wanted to try and win a Derby with a homegrown stallion ASAP, but I was always ticked off that he kept Discreet Cat in training and retired this boy. To me, it was just a waste.

They need the millions in potential stallion fees to help support all their Camel racing exploits silly!

i disagree that bernardini was better....the withers, jim dandy and travers were a joke. he won the preakness when the BIG horse broke down. in fact, the travers field was one of the worst ever. he beat blugrass cat and allowance loser dr. pleasure...real tough...then showed his true colors when invasor ate him for lunch the same way ap indy did in his classic...the jockey gold cup is his one legit race and that field was sort of "beat" too...ap indy ran against pleasant tap and strike the gold....i know the numbers probably say different but when your beating up chumps its easy to run faster.

Invasor was a pretty nice horse, but great? No way.

Bernardini, he was also a really good horse as well, but I just don't get how people went off the deep-end with him.

Perhaps they were just relatively speaking to what else was running at the time.

Yeah, well, no doubt he was much superior to what was left of the 3yos, but heck, he still lost to Invasor.

Also, people were elevating him to all time great status. Heck, one dork on DT recently even went so far as saying he was a better racehorse than his sire!

Seriously.

I adored Bernardini and just thought he was a tremendous horse. He didn't get a chance to prove his greatness as a 4 year old, which stinks. Maybe Invasor wasn't "great", but I see people knocking his race to this very good older horse as proof that Bernardini was not very good and that makes no sense. I think it's possible to think a horse is very good and very talented without thinking he's the greatest thing ever. Bernadini did have exceptional talent, but thanks to the Sheikh, we'll never know what he could have done as he improved as an older horse. I also think it's unfair to knock him because Barbaro broke down in the Preakness. Bernardini ran great that day - who's to say he wouldn't have won anyway? That would have been a very nice rivalry - too bad it didn't happen.

No one loves Indy more than I do, but yes - I absolutely think Bernardini could have beaten him.

At the time of their respective retirements, I think there was still quite a bit more upside to Indy than Bernardini.

The thing with Indy, his Canadian race notwithstanding, he was still improving with every start. I, and many others back then, thought he was going to keep getting better had he raced more.

I can't say the same for Bernardini.

You didn't think Bernardini was capable of improving even off his excellent 3 year old form? I guess we'll never know, but I thought he had a lot more that we never got to see. All I do know is that I have never been as crushed as I was when Indy was scratched on Derby eve........what a punch in the gut that was. It was sweet vindication when he won the BC. He won that race so easily.I hoped he'd run as a 4 year old, but I didn't think that was ever a real possibility. I was just glad that his owner was not into breeding because if he was, Indy would be in Japan now. It's been a long time - maybe I'm underrating how good he was as a racehorse because he's been so good as a sire. It's a shame that he probably won't ever sire a KY Derby winner, but maybe one of his sons will.

Old Trieste performed poorly sprinting.

Yes - A. P. Indy was "a better race horse" because Drysdale "never got to the bottom of him"

Perhaps A. P. Indy was improving and would have been a better older horse - but anyone who rates him better than Bernardini as a racehorse - based on the record - is clueless.

Likewise, anyone who relies solely on numbers is as well.

As you know already, there is more to my belief Indy was a better runner than Bernardini than just that one little quip I mentioned.

Based on the record? Indy was a grade 1 winner at 2, despite being far from having reached his full potential. He beat a very good horse in the SA Derby (Bertrando) that was probably much better than anything Bernardini beat.

He won the Belmont. His loss in his final start before the BCC (I believe it was the JCGC) was light years better than anything Bernardini ever showed, and oh yeah, he won the BCC over a much better field than what Bernardini faced.

Granted, one loss does not define a career or a horse, but Bernardini did fire and had no excuses when he lost to what was basically a deluxe version of Musket Man.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that was probably more due to him improving with racing than him not being able to sprint.

You'd have to be completely out of your mind to think he wouldn't have been an upper echelon sprinter later in his career.

I don't know what is funnier - that anyone would think "Invasor ate Bernardini for lunch in the BC Classic" or Pleasant Tap and Strike The Gold being held as great competition.

Strike The Gold - while a favorite horse of mine (and least favorite of my grandfather) - was a losing machine and became something of a laughing stock.



Pleasant Tap was a very solid horse .. but nothing that special.




I love how Bernardini's blowout wins in major 3yo races get picked apart - but A. P. Indy's 3yo races just get ignored. The hapless Benburb had his way with A. P. Indy in Canada off of the layoff in the Molson Million.

A. P. Indy's second best career win besides the BC Classic came in the Belmont Stakes in workmanlike fashion over the immortal My Memoirs



The year A. P. Indy won the BC Classic - Jolypha ..the 3yo filly from Europe was 3rd in the race.

Invasor is a deluxe version of Musket Man?

Dude, stop trying to think for yourself ... it's not working. Adopt the belief that if I say it - I must be right.

I do think it's unfair that Bernardini gets knocked for finishing 2nd in the Classic. I loved Indy, but you're right - he was more workmanlike in the Belmont than anything else. Granted, he was coming off a very, very good prep in the Peter Pan.............I think 2 weeks before?

I guess that it is not possible in your world view that something went amiss for My Memoirs after the Belmont. Are you really implying that Indy would have been nearly distanced in all those subsequent races in which My Memoirs got destroyed?

I do not know why Jolypha never regained her form either, but she was clearly a top level horse, and even Frankel, years later, called her one of the best three fillies he'd ever trained.

Yeah, I suppose I went overboard with the deluxe Musket Man remark, but you know as well as I do Invasor was far from being an immortal great.

As for believing you must always be right when you say something, do you still plan on being dead by the time you are 29, with three kids?

Obviously something went badly amiss with My Memoirs physically after the Jim Dandy flop. Notice the two year layoff.

However - he hardly brought promising form into the Belmont Stakes. If Bernardini beat him in similar workmanlike fashion - it would be held against him a lot more.

The best laid plans of mice and men often go awry.

Most unfortunate!

A new contender emerges in the form of my youngest brother Pat.

If I could add my 2 cents to this post? A.P. Indy without any doubts would have crushed the joke of the 92 Derby when he scratched due to his foot. While Pine Bluff (o.t.b.f) was a good horse, Lil E.T. would have been 50-1 if Pat "Wait all" Day was not on him. Casual Lies and Dance Floor could not warm up A.P. Indy and we all knew Arazi was over hyped from his juvie win the previous year at CD....btw how did that one 7f turf prep in an allowance in France workout Sheik?

A.P. Indy had the cruising speed, but was very temperamental, he lost the Molson million in the paddock that day(rank and washy) when 50-1 longshot Benburb beat him. Came to Belmont a month later and had the trip from hell losing to Pleasant Tap in the Jockey Gold cup and when he won the BC Classic, he look worst than Zilzal in 1989 in the post parade and I had always thought that was the worst a horse could look before a race. That even proves how much talent A.P. Indy had. But we all know why he was retired after his 3 yrs old season? It was called being a 4.5 Million dollar yearling and too much money was on him for being a Stallion. One of the first time siblings ran to a high level as his 1/2 brother Summer Squall won the preakness in 1990.

Lil E Tee would have given A. P. Indy all he could handle.

I doubt it. I love Bernardini and think he could (not saying he definitely would have) beaten AP Indy, but Indy was very good and he would have won that Derby no doubt. Lil E Tee was not that good, though if I recall he became a decent older horse.

Well said, but I do believe Indy went for about 2.9 mil.

Betsy, while he does honestly seem to believe San Bernardini would have beaten Indy, he's just yanking our chains on the Lil E Tee remark.

Oh, lol..............

You really think it's beyond the realm of possibility that Bernardini would have beaten his sire?

It was hardly a forgone conclusion - especially with A. P. Indy's sun-dial slow Santa Anita Derby win. Both he and the 2nd place finisher Bertrando missed their next start due to injury. Bertrando missed a lot of time I believe.

Indy was a much better horse than Lil E. Tee.........but nothing's ever a foregone conclusion in the Derby

I was there at the SA Derby, and that 149.1 was a legit time and that was a solid race by the first three finishers. I don't care what your precious number says, that was a grade 1 performance.

It was tons better than the 150.2 sundial job Bernardini pulled in the Jim Dandy, despite the huge fig he got for beating up on nothing.

Once again, thinking for yourself doesn't work.

Another Review won the San Bernadino in time 2 full seconds faster than A. P. Indy on the same card at the same distance.

I already covered this in-depth with your stubborn ass ...

http://www.derbytrail.com/forums/sho...8&postcount=83

If that was legit time for a Grade 1 ... I suppose Another Review ran a 130 that day?

Yeah, we've had this discussion innumerable times in the past dozen years or so.

You are still wrong. I'm sure nowadays they'd just have split that variant nice and neat like.

Besides the time, they ran a hard fought race and were legitimately tired 3yos going a longer distance than any of them had gone before.

Was the San Bernardini race restricted to 3yos that year?

That's really not fair. The track was extremely sloppy and Castellano was literally a statue as he ran around the track. Since when is Bluegrass Cat nothing? Even so, what more could the horse do? How far did you want him to win by?

My point was, or is, not to denigrate Bernardini. I was trying to point out that you can have a slow time and still have what is a really strong performance.

However, Bertrando would have eaten Bluegrass Cat for lunch, and while I don't remember the Bernardini JCGC card/day at all, most often sloppy tracks bring fast times.