Pioneer of the Nile misses the top 20....
 

But Zenyatta is the 18th greatest horse of all-time. Who knew?

http://www.xpressbet.com/iframe/article.aspx?id=2293


Luckily he didn't make a 'top 1,200 horses of all-time' list ... so there will be no Blame checking in at #1,193.

The Zenyattards are still going strong I see.

18th best American runner ever. I can probably think of at least 18 fillies in my 25 years of watching racing that would beat Zenyatta at least 50% of the time.

Just the fact that she is buffeted by Colin and Seabiscuit demonstrates the absurdity.

And War Admiral is behind her... Oh, as well as Bold Ruler, Alydar, Sunday Silence... :rolleyes:

How soon we forget her great heroics over true champions like Anbaa's Creations and Brownie Points.

Zenyatta probably would have beat dominant So. Cal division leader Nashoba's Key if Shirreffs didn't scratch her. Zenyatta probably would have beat the mighty Miss Isella over a sloppy track at Churchill if Shirreffs didn't scratch her.

Zenyatta probably would have won the Breeders Cup Juvenile at two if Shirreffs wasn't so patient. Zenyatta probably would have been a great 3-year-old filly ... if only she didn't miss all the action.

Obviously Zenyatta deserves to be rated ahead of recent horses like Skip Away, Cigar, and Ghostzapper ... those horses couldn't touch her... especially at the distance of 8.5 furlongs where she's known to light up the sundials you time her with.

Just imagine if Shirreffs had got brave and daring and ran Zenyatta in races like the Hollywood Gold Cup against the legendary winner Awesome Gem. Or the Pacific Classic against the legendary winner Richard's Kid.

Such victories - instead of narrow ones over Rinterval and St. Trinians - would have surely had to catapult her into the top five of all-time.

However, Shirreffs is a very patient man - and didn't want to risk having Zenyatta extend herself too much until the big day. It's all about the one big day a year and the win/loss record.

OMG :eek::zz:

I don't believe into all this because I've been watching racing for 20 years and haven't seen any of the horses run Live or on TV remote. Even on the 20of the 20th century Of All Time I've only seen Cigar and Zenny. So how am I to know anything about horses racing in the 60's and 70's. That's wrong with racing because every article talks about how much better the past is better than the present and future. Makes me sick.

He didn't put Cigar on his top 20 list.

Basically, Jon White thinks that Zenyatta is the best horse - male or female - that we've seen since Spectacular Bid.

Spectacular Bid is the 2nd to youngest horse on that list of his... and he last raced over 30 years ago.

And Bid is placed wrong as well but forget that.

I thought Cigar made it. Dam now the list is even worse than I thought. I hate this BS Best of List. Could the teams of the 30's beat today world Series winners? Are they the Best of All Time. At least in other Sports teams make the All Time list that even a 10 yearold could say he saw them play. I'm not saying all of the old timer's couldn't run but come on not a one since the Late 70's early 80's. Hell that's over 30 years ago.

No Mineshaft. Disgraceful.

Don't know about Mineshaft that much only saw him run in person once. What about some of the other's Curlin, Zapper, Point Given. I think alot of horses would've had a better record only going against 12 others in the Derby instead of the stampede they have now. A good record means nothing to me in today's racing.

Hey it could be worse. Earlier in the year on Steve's show he said he had her in the top 10.

To make this easier, here's the Bloodhorse Top 100 from the 20th Century, a list widely respected for its' fairness... Fold in your 2000-2010 horses and figure out where Zenyatta belongs, if she even makes the Top 100 or 125.

1. Man o'War
2. Secretariat
3. Citation
4. Kelso
5. Count Fleet
6. Dr. Fager
7. Native Dancer
8. Forego
9. Seattle Slew
10. Spectacular Bid
11. Tom Fool
12. Affirmed
13. War Admiral
14. Buckpasser
15. Colin
16. Damascus
17. Round Table
18. Cigar
19. Bold Ruler
20. Swaps
21. Equipoise
22. Phar Lap
23. John Henry
24. Nashua
25. Seabiscuit
26. Whirlaway
27. Alydar
28. Gallant Fox
29. Exterminator
30. Sysonby
31. Sunday Silence
32. Skip Away
33. Assault
34. Easy Goer
35. Ruffian
36. Gallant Man
37. Discovery
38. Challedon
39. Armed
40. Busher
41. Stymie
42. Alysheba
43. Northern Dancer
44. Ack Ack
45. Gallorette
46. Majestic Prince
47. Coaltown
48. Personal Ensign
49. Sir Barton
50. Dahila

51. Susan's Girl
52. Twenty Grand
53. Sword Dancer
54. Grey Lag
55. Devil Diver
56. Zev
57. Riva Ridge
58. Slew o'Gold
59. Twilight Tear
60. Native Diver
61. Omaha
62. Cicada
63. Silver Charm
64. Holy Bull
65. Alsab
66. Top Flight
67. Arts and Letters
68. All Along
69. Noor
70. Shuvee
71. Regret
72. Go for Wand
73. Johnstown
74. Bald Eagle
75. Hill Prince
76. Lady's Secret
77. Two Lea
78. Eight Thirty
79. Gallant Bloom
80. Ta Wee
81. Affectionately
82. Miesque
83. Carry Back
84. Bimelech
85. Lure
86. Fort Marcy
87. Gamely
88. Old Rosebud
89. Bewitch
90. Davona Dale
91. Genuine Risk
92. Sarazen
93. Sun Beau
94. Artful
95. Bayakoa
96. Exceller
97. Foolish Pleasure
98. Beldame
99. Roamer
100. Blue Larkspur

Miesque. 82. 'Nuff said about Zenyatta I think.

So Cigar is 18 and then Skippy is 32. My my what a tangled web.

In terms of ability - a lot of the old horses on that list are very overrated.

Bloodhorse rated Count Fleet #5 of the last century - if you saw the form of the horses he beat in those races - and looked at the times he was running in relation to the speed of the track - you'd want to load up on Smarty Jones against him. Let alone a Sunday Silence or Easy Goer.

Man O' War is obviously a bad #1. He was born into a microscopic foal crop. After his Preakness win at age 3 .. which truly wasn't that fast even for the handful of horses around at that time .. he faced all 1-to-3 horse fields - and his brilliant early speed was great in match-race situations. His great claim to fame was beating Sir Barton in a match race in Canada .. Sir Barton never won another race.

Citation, Kelso, Forego achieved a monsterous amount. Certainly great horses - but I think they would have been taken to the woodshed by a Spectacular Bid at distances of up to 10fs

Native Dancer had a GREAT 2-year-old season. His Triple Crown campaign was very weak.

Dr. Fager, Swaps, Tom Fool all truly great horses from every angle. I've finally had a chance to see some charts of their races and forms of opposition faced.

Ruffian was a great filly at both 2 and 3 - but obviously she doesn't belong on this list. There are easily way more than 15 males better than her and maybe even a few females as well.


Zenyatta never raced at two - accomplished nothing at 3 - and there's at least five older females unquestionably better than her. Princess Rooney would make no one's top 500 .. and she's run a 120 Beyer at 10fs ... was one of the most brilliant 2-year-old fillies of all-time ... and would beat Zenyatta by a city block at a distance of a mile.

As I said a few weeks back when I mentioned this list, how one can compare Zenyatta to horses like Busher, Twilight Tear, and Gallorette - who ran against males with some regularity - and come to the conclusion that she was a superior runner is beyond me.

Steve - if you were meaning to "purple" the fillies, you left out Beldame.

I've seen or been around racing for maybe 10 of the whole list. This makes me:mad: Like it was said before they sometimes raced against 3-4 other horses in alot of races.

It's hard to compare different generations but I have a major problem with Bid being below any horse that has run since the 60's.

That's been my point from early on.

For the record, Gallorette ran 72 times compiling a record of 21-20-13. She ran against her own sex a whopping 17 times. 17. One more time for clarity... SEVENTEEN. Versus females, 17/8-4-5 including:

Acorn Stakes (1945)
Black-Eyed Susan Stakes (1945)
Delaware Oaks (1945)
Beldame Stakes (1946)
Top Flight (1948)

She ran against males 55 times with a record of 13-16-8 against them at distances between 6f and 10f. She faced Stymie regularly. Assault. Pavot. Conniver. Among her wins:

Metropolitan Handicap (1946)
Brooklyn Handicap (1946)
Wilson Stakes (1947, 1948)
Queens County Handicap (1947)
Carter Handicap (1948)
Whitney Handicap (1948)

The notion that Zenyatta is even an equal of Gallorette is utterly preposterous.

It is awfully hard to look past all those seconds and thirds. :rolleyes:

That may be so, but it is equally as preposterous, if you believe the other females belong on the list, to suggest that Zenyatta doesn't belong in the top 100 or top 125

I left that open for interpretation.

Personally, as I've said a number of times, I think she would have acquitted herself famously if given the opportunity. Had she been campaigned with true historical proportion in mind, she likely would have built a far more impressive body of work with clear indications of her greatness, than the hollow slate that was foisted on her.

A horse like Count Fleet simply shouldn't be rated ahead of horses like him and Dr. Fager.

Count Fleet lost a couple times to a horse named Occupation as a 2yo. Occupation was a nice sprinter who won four different Futurities at age two. He got sidelined and didn't come back till Count Fleet was retired - he just held on to win at Hawthorne on return.

Here's who Count Fleet was beating as a 3-year-old ...



Blue Swords was 2nd to him in the Derby and Preakness. He never won a single race after age 2.



This horse was 3rd in the Derby and 2nd in the Withers to Count Fleet.




This horse was 2nd to Count Fleet in a 3 horse Belmont...albeit beaten 20 lengths.


Count Fleet wasn't a slow horse by any means - it appears as though he was running figures in a 105-to-114 range at age 3.

He never ran again after the Belmont Stakes ... how do you compare a horse like that with something that runs about 130 figures carrying 130lbs like Bid and Dr. Fager as older horses?.. and they actually faced real competition and curb stomped their competition a lot of the time.

If you're talking about best overall horse - there's no female horse that belongs in the top 50 - possibly even top 100.

Festin had Zenyatta's running style .. lets pretend he was female and Shireffs was spotting him against Taptam, Lethal Heat, Brownie Points, Anbaa's Creations etc.

Festin would kill those horses. He was clearly a better deep closer than Zenyatta. Where would you put Festin on a list of greatest horses ever?

That's why I qualified my statement by stating, "if you believe the other females belong on the list." I think any list such as this probably should include females, albeit with an acknowledgement that most of the females' performances were graded "on a curve" because of their gender.

......no, but if you think festin was a better horse....:zz::zz:

Even if Festin wasn't a better horse than Zenyatta, it was still a pretty good pull.

Festin would have trounced Zenyatta ... Zenyatta's own sire Street Cry... also didn't come around fully till age 4 like her .. but Street Cry would have absolutely demolished Zenyatta.





STREET CRY




The difference is that Zenyatta is running against sheer equine filth of the female variety ... and Street Cry and Festin ran against excellent top older males like Left Bank and Sakhee - and In Excess, Farma Way, Unbridled, Black Tie Affair etc.

Festin needed a very fast pace - and only really got it once. He was hindered in the Black Tie Affair Classic by a slow pace.

Festin would have routinely beaten Zenyatta, as DrugS said, and pretty much nobody has even heard of him.

But, Zenyatta is, apparently, the 18th best horse of all-time....and those that disagree are haters and worthy of derision.

By the way.....you may be wrong about Count Fleet. There are old-time figure makers that believe he might have been the fastest.

sigh.

I don't know about that one man.

He ran just six times at age 3 - in five stakes races.

His wins in the Wood, Derby, Preakness, and Withers - I'm pretty confident are not faster than 114 tops. There are a lot of other races to work with on those cards.

The race I think these old-time figure makers might be refering to - is his 25 length win in the Belmont in his final start.

I posted the form of the horse who finished 2nd earlier in this thread - he's a slug - and the 3rd place finisher was even worse. It was just a field of 3. They make Twice A Prince and My Gallant look like Ghostzapper and Formal Gold.

There was another route the day Count Fleet won the Belmont - also at 12fs - it was a MSW race that went 7.20 full seconds slower. However, it was a pretty horrid looking MSW race on paper. This was the workman like winner ...



Count Fleet only ran six times at age three - never faced an older horse - faced a horrid looking 3yo crop - and if he did run supersonic fast in one race, he did it at 12fs against two laughing stock plugs in a race its not easy to make a number for.

He didn't do enough to be considered the 5th best American horse ever. Had he not become injured after the Belmont - and took it to older horses - than yeah, maybe.