Goldlikova vs Zenyatta
 

In case anyone missed it or still doesn't understand...boil it down to the facts

http://drf.com/news/goldikova-rules-world

"In her four Group 1 victories in Europe and her Grade 1 Breeders’ Cup Mile triumph, Goldikova was beating 16 winners of 37 Group or Grade 1 races. The overall Group/Grade 1 record of her competition in those five races is 157-37-25-19."

"In her five Grade 1 victories this year, Zenyatta was beating not a single Grade 1 winner. The overall Group/Grade 1 record of her competition in those five races is 28-0-1-2. Moreover, Zenyatta beat just two Grade 2 winners in those five races, St Trinians in the Vanity Handicap and Switch in the Lady's Secret."

Who cares about facts? Did you not see Zenyatta's dance?

I'll start by saying that I'm in the camp that doesn't think Zenyatta is worthy of HOTY. However, the article cleverly omits the graded credentials of the horses she put a whoopin on in the classic.

The thing is that no one is discounting her effort in the classic. The point is that the rest of her campaign is so soft, unlike the other mares.

One could compete in $5 million races … the other can compete for no more than $2 million

Top-flight classic distance runners are superior to 8-furlong turf specialists.

Sorry, Goldi fans … just the way it is…

Chuck, I realize this. I'm just pointing out the fact that stats can be misleading or stacked a certain way. The article is trying to point out a very large difference in the graded credentials that G and Z have defeated this year. I know Z didn't win the classic, but she did shame a lot of horses with a long list of graded achievements.

So Usain Bolt is an inferior athlete to a bunch of skinny guys from Kenya who run marathons?

Greatness is greatness. Goldikova is obviously great.

Being an almost great classic distance runner isnt anything to be ashamed of.

She may have finished in front of them in one race but surely you dont think that the stats used here are misleading? Zenyatta's 2010 accomplishments outside of the BC are hardly even noteworthy.

And finishing in front of horses who obviously went amiss like QR is not exactly a major accomplishment. Yeah the BC race was full of accomplished runners she finished ahead of (though many had questionable credentials of their own) but that doesnt excuse the rest of the year.

she won last year at 10f.......alas you will say that does not count so it seems you cant lose the way you frame your arguments.

what was the top flight classic distance race that Zenyatta won this year?

Also, which of the two horses mentioned actually won a BC race this year?

Sorry Toll Booth fans ... just the way it is...

So winning the BC Classic makes you great?

No one questions her distance ability, just her greatness...

Goldikova won a 9f race this year in track record time. The idea that she's inferior because the majority of her wins are at 8fs is painfully stupid and would be propagated only by someone with a limited to non-existent understanding of horse racing. Who can that be?

I'd say a mile--on both turf and dirt--is probably where you'd find the toughest races nowadays.

I've had enough. Your ignorance, or trolling, has worn out my patience.

I just did a back flip

agreed.

I've always thought the BC Mile (the turf edition) was one of the toughest, most competitive races.

You mean, like Blame?

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!

My reason for living has just ended!

Actually, I was going to ask you if it was okay to start up a poll to see if there was anyone on DT more blatantly stupid or annoying than Smoothie.

I guess that won't be necessary now!!!

winning 14 grade 1 races, two BC races, and losing the other at the wire makes you great...........please name another horse with similar accomplishments that you dont consider great.......I need a frame of reference from your view point, maybe you only consider like 10 horses in the history great.

Hey, IC, I'm right there with you on Blame. I'm not even gonna pretend that Z gets by B with one more jump or two. Blame was better this day. Actually if the Z camp wanted, this could have been the last in a series of Z vs B.
I just think the stats are stacked G's way for the purpose ofthis article.

Chuck, these starts aren't about whether the competition was at it's best. It's about what they've done in graded events. You're correct, G has had more competitive races than Z. It shouldn't need misleading stats to just say so.

It's her level of greatness that's questioned.

As in, like, there is no freaking way she's better than a Secretariat or Spectacular Bid.

Nor is she greater than a number of fillies and mares I can think of in the last 25 years.

I dont think people with a clue suggest that.

HAH!

Didn't Mike Smith suggest it on 60 Minutes?

you think jockeys that ride horses should be taken seriously? I think all the falls start to affect the thinking process......lots of beer as well.

Gary Stevens says Zenyatta is the horse he has ever seen.

I don't think they should, but I figured you might take his opinion seriously.

I'm sorry. It was a tired act. Specifically, a recent repeat of a post designed only to ellicit a response was the tripwire.

Steve, you deserve HOY for pulling that trigger!

Ignoring the reality of her unique circumstances doesnt eliminate them as a factor in detracting from her accomplishments.

But you do and they are hardly misleading. How many times have we heard that she won 14 grade 1 races when her credentials are questioned? I think what the writer is saying is that the quality of the graded race that one mare raced in far outweighs the quality of similarly graded events the other mare competed in. Just adding one strong race into a 20 race sample doesnt really make the argement presented misleading does it?

Of course you are correct, Goldikova ran a much tougher campaign. Perhaps I misspoke, the stats aren't misleading, they lead you right to the point that G faced a heartier bunch and in more races to boot. The stats just aren't complete ... unless you only count who you've beaten in races that you've won. I guess I just hate when figures are twisted to exaggerate a point. You posted earlier that no one is discounting her effort in the classic, actually they are in this case. They chose to include one BC race and not the other. My original post was merely to state that Z beat the dog sh!t out of several multiple graded winners on the dirt at the classic distance. If the writer is going to use stats, use them all.

Thank you Lori, but alas, it would be a hollow victory... A make up vote for earlier campaigns when I faced better competition and shipped around the country in pursuit of real challenges. You know, back when I still drank, smoked and was at the top of my game. ;)

I suppose technically you are correct though some people dont count races in which the horse doesn't win as the writer here does. Not saying it is right or wrong. But the hypothesis is still the same, Goldikova's graded schedule was far superior than Zenyatta's. You would think that people would realize this simply by looking at names of the races but stubborn Zenyatta fans refuse to believe that she would have had a far greater time staying undefeated in tougher competition like Goldikova faced.

I was as disappointed as anyone at the road Z's camp took to the classic. Hat's off to Goldikova and company for choosing the better path.

:tro::tro:

1999/2000 Parting Glass HOY!

:tro:

If you don't want it, can we give it to the Mig for his excellent performance over the year?

Not denying her greatness, but the point of the article was to reveal the true quality of those "Grade 1" races in the company of below par California females. So we're talking about +/-4 true G1 fields, one of them in open company on the pro-ride.

Well stated. You'd make a solid modern day racing writer. The editors clean up stuff like the missing apostrophe between the n and t in doesn't. It's a breeze.

If I wanted to be a modern turf writer i would write things like:

Zenyatta is the greatest horse I have ever seen and has done more for racing than Abe Lincoln did for slaves.

Or

Lasix is evil. Lasix is evil. Lasix is evil.

So pissed we weren't friends back then.