Westboro Baptist
 

Amazing how many people think they should not be allowed to protest. They observed the 1000 feet rule at the funeral. Are they jerks? Of course. But if they want to hold up God Hates Fags signs etc, they are protected just as the '78 Skokie case showed and the 1988 case of Larry Flynt. If you don't like it, you have a choice. Ignore.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0meqcKTAcMU

Bit of an understatement.

So? Bad people exist. And hate speech is protected. Wanting otherwise shows a lack of recognition on what the first amendment guarantees.

Did I say their free speech shouldn't be protected? It really shouldn't be, but it has to be. No way around it even though the court is dying to find a loophole.

There will be no loophole and it should be protected...They will win the case. It never should've gone to trial to begin with.

yup

They should get no police protection for their rallies and let the chips fall where they may.

What they do is tasteless, disgusting and completely vile to anyone with any legitimate sense of what activities a civilized society should conduct.

However, they're going to win this case. The appeals court threw out the ruling to give the deceased soldier's father 11 million dollars for intentional infliction of emotional distress and invasion of privacy. I think it's very hard to believe the Supreme Court will overturn that decision.

The most nauseating part of the NIghtline story is when those two assholes scoffed at Terry Moran for even mentioning that they protest at the funerals of men and women who fight to support the right they so willingly use. Talk about circular logic.

when speech is shown to clearly hurt others, it is not protected, I believe in the 1st Amendment but I think they cross the line. The emotional trauma they cause the families of slain heroes is certainly not what the founding fathers had in mind. Yes, much speech is crude and disgusting...that's protected but yelling "fire" in a crowded movie theater is not.

Obviously on a technicality, but I think you can see the difference between the two

??? The way I understand it, the case isn't about Westboro's ability to stand on a sidewalk and demonstrate their low IQ's, it's when they specifically named these people on their website and went after them.

ET,


As eloquently as you typed this.....don't you realize where you are...now?????

Incorrect. Hyperbolic speech is always protected...."God Hates Fags, God Loves Dead Soldiers" is hyperbolic. Again, they will surely win this case.

But when "God hate fags and thank God for dead troops" is spewed at a funeral it becomes harmful to the families....I don't give a damn if they have their hate fests but not at military funerals. The right to one's opinion is not the same as attacking innocent folks and beating them over the head with one's perversion. They are encouraging violence....I think this is a gray area...hopefully the Court will use common sense!

But you miss that they followed the law. Not a chance that the church doesn't win. Again, hyperbolic speech is the key.

Alan Chen from NYTIMES has a better legal explanation.

It’s never easy to defend free speech. People claiming First Amendment protection for their expression are almost always unpopular, mired in controversy, and socially and politically marginalized. Their speech is often intended to provoke public outcry, unrest and anger. That’s how they call attention to the causes they embrace. As a result, emotions run high.

Speakers will very likely censor themselves out of fear that they will be sued for their free expression.
The case of the Westboro Baptist Church’s funeral protests is no different. One would have to be heartless not to feel for families mourning the tragic loss of their loved ones who have served their country bravely. Our natural human impulse is to want to stop such speech. But the First Amendment protects our pluralistic society from this reflexive, majoritarian desire to censor messages that make us uncomfortable or upset. We don’t need the Constitution to protect wildly popular speech; we need it to protect expression with which we vehemently disagree.

That is why First Amendment doctrine generally forbids the government (including courts, through judgments for plaintiffs who claim emotional distress based on the words of others) to penalize speech solely because of its content. Many suggest that the Constitution should allow an exception to this rule for the funeral protest in this case because the content of the speech was highly offensive. “Isn’t this different?,” people ask. “Haven’t these people crossed the line?”

History is filled with similar pleas to the courts to protect people’s sensibilities by limiting the First Amendment. These have emerged from across the ideological spectrum, with claims for exceptions ranging from flag burning to abortion protest, from profane political expression to misogynist musical lyrics. The courts have usually resisted them, and with good reason. The composition of public discourse would be severely distorted if we permitted government to pick and choose which ideas we hear.

A ruling protecting funeral protests under the First Amendment does not leave grieving families without protection. The law already allows regulation of speech or conduct that is threatening. Government also may regulate the volume of speech as well as the location where it occurs, so long as it applies the same limits to all speakers. Finally, the law permits people to protect themselves from trespass, the physical invasion of their private property or spaces.

The case pending in the Supreme Court is about much more than funeral protests. Allowing a First Amendment exemption for highly offensive speech would open the door to a wide range of regulation that could seriously endanger our collective liberty. If the multi-million dollar judgment against the church and its supporters for intentional infliction of emotional distress and invasion of privacy is upheld, it will deter protestors of all political views.

Speakers will likely censor themselves out of fear that they will be sued by someone who is highly offended or emotionally harmed by the passionate way that they convey their beliefs. The marketplace of ideas will be muted. The protection of these protesters’ rights ensures the liberty of many other speakers. But one of the prices of that liberty is tolerance for words that may hurt.

you've simplified plaintiff arguments in a way that if true would, in fact, make this a slam dunk. so why did the supreme court grant cert?

plaintiff won $5 million against westboro in a lower court. the appeals court overturned that verdict. now the supreme court agreed to hear the case when all they had to do was deny cert and the appeals court ruling stands. why would they bother hearing the case?

re-read what riot wrote. it's not about signs held up at funerals. it's about the speech specifically targeted at plaintiff on the westboro website. the issue is going to be whether or not this plaintiff is a public figure. that's where the justices questioning went. if he is, then falwell vs. flynt applies and it is indeed a slam dunk.

if he's not, then they'll either expand the free speech rules from flynt so they also apply to private individuals or they'll distinguish from flynt and you could see a very different ruling than you expect.

the court took on the case for a reason. i don't know what it is but i guarentee it wasn't to waste all the time and effort to say the appeals court had it exactly right. they're going to make a point. they wouldn't have taken the case otherwise.

Yes they take very few cases but they haven't taken one in 22 years such as this. More a, we are due factor, than rewriting the law....As for the internet post, the line of questioning didn't follow that that was their main concern for the case. Second, if they upheld the judgment, every blogger who is critical of someone from here on out will be taken to court....In 2 months we will see who is correct.

Yeah the government, big oil, blackwater etc. eat that s.hit up. It's a card used to censor objectors so these a.ssholes can continue lining their pockets with bogus wars that do ANYTHING but protect our freedoms.

they also haven't ruled on slavery recently, randall.

i like the idea of the justices sitting around deciding which cases to take based on the fact they haven't done it in a while. "yeah, it's settled law and there's nothing for us to add but it's been 150 years dude!"

that's not the way it's done though. they have a point to make. we'll find out what it is.

Not really. Again, when the court has changed virtually every member in the past 20 years, they do often look back at similar cases...yes things are different mainly b/c the internet is different. But to believe they will censor blog criticisms is not going to happen....Plus he was searching a month after the funeral when he saw the post. The two really shouldn't be connected at all.

do they look back at similar cases and leave them intact?

i'm not suggesting which way this goes but it's going to be either an expansion of falwell vs. flynt so that it also apply to individuals who aren't public figures or it's going to place some limits on speech.

or they may move the line on what defines a "public figure"

what they aren't going to do is nothing which is what your "i can't believe anyone is even debating this" opening and "sometimes they like to do the same thing again just for the hell of it." suggests.

there's a reason they took the case.

To me it isn't debatable which is why I chose to portray it that way...Now they surely took it for a reason and as I said already part of that reason could be "internet speech" but also this kind of protest at funerals is not something that used to happen. We will wait and see rather than talk passed each other.

http://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arg...pts/09-751.pdf

some light reading.

Cool reading

If there are 2 votes against the freak Church, I'll be surprised

Because of ignorant people like these there should be a draft. Maybe then they will realize how good they have it. Its a shame you have people like these who have no respect for the dead, especially for a dead person who gave up thier life for our country.

The majority of them are too old and genetically challenged to be drafted. Should just pick them up and drop them off in the desert with no supplies.

Maybe the above should also apply to the illegals. Lets also put them in the desert without supplies.

You mean like what happens right now?

Seriously: why don't you read up a little on the subjects you so like to hate?

Here, you can read only the first paragraph:

Back to the point. Supreme Court or not, if that was my son's, or brother's, or daughter's, or sister's, or friend's funeral someone would be laying bleeding in the gutter clinging to the last thread of life with a God hates fags sign sticking out of their you know what. Then I'd be on trial.

My attention span would not let me read very much. But I think God wins this one Randall.

As usual. I am right. ;)

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/03/us/03scotus.html?hp

I would suggest that everytime a member of this church shows a sign they are given a beating and anyone who gets arrested demands a jury of his peers. Wonder if kickachurchladysass.org is reserved.

Let's then see how those courts rule.

Violence is never the answer but I certainly understand how these idiots push the "kick your teeth down your throat" button. They mock our country and those who defend the freedoms they exploit and then demand legal defense, using that same system they betray. I believe in karma and to those fools I only say...there's a storm heading your way!

Westboro Baptist has been very successfully dealt with the past year: wherever they show up, citizens now organize and line the streets preventing WB from getting anywhere near their targets, and physically obstructing them and their signs from the target (along funeral routes, for example). In other words, WB can't get close to the victim's families if the streets are already lined arm-to-arm and 3 deep with volunteer citizens.

It's worked in multiple cities, and WB has even gone home without demonstrating a few times, as their targets wouldn't even see them.

Their spokesperson gloated publicly today and claimed they would quadruple the number of military funerals they picket, 44 states have passed legislation limiting their access to funeral sites and 48 attorney generals filed briefs with the Court siding with Mr Snyder...this is far from over...unfortunately!

Hey, if you can get them drafted, I am now protected (according to today's ruling) in my right to hold up a sign saying "God loves dead Westboro Baptists."

No, Joey, you've always been protected with freedom of speech. That is not a new thing starting today.

I know that -- I was joking. Of course, should violence break out when the Westboro Baptists meet supporters of the military, which side gets charged with a hate crime?

ding,ding,ding...we have a winner. forget about the fag talk......if any of you bothered to listen to the lady that agrued for them (and she won). thats their whole point...its not about fags or hate.......they are pointing out the fact that our soldiers are dying for all of our sins......being gay is just one....greed, violence and imperialism are some of the others...they have no class but they do have a point...as long as we accept these illegal wars...we are all guilty. the government and media don't want it spun the way it really is and as usual most drones will eat up the media version. sure thats what God would of done....he would of blown the hell out of Iraq....lol....ok...throw hypocrites on the list too....lol

First of all, it's quite arrogant of you to assume none of us heard the vile rhetoric of the daughter of the church founder (yes. she somehow became a lawyer and did indeed represent the church before the Court). If these folks believed that our troops were dying for our collective sins then why not call society to task rather than singling out dead troops and their families? They are a hate group, pure and simple and simplistic attempts to cling somehow to some higher calling cannot disguise that. They hate gays, much as the clan hates blacks and Nazis hate Jews...trying to explain their actions with some philosophical justification cannot wash the crap away!