Jon White on the Best Horses of the last 50 years...
 

http://www.xpressbet.com/columns.asp...uthor=JonWhite

Sharpen your pitch forks...

Xpressbet is blocked here at work. Could you or someone please post the list?

TOP 10 MALES OF THE PAST 50 YEARS

1. Secretariat
2. Kelso
3. Spectacular Bid
4. Dr. Fager
5. Seattle Slew
6. Forego
7. Affirmed
8. Buckpasser
9. Damascus
10. John Henry
In the March 17 edition of this column, I asked the question, “Where does Zenyatta fit among America’s all-time greats?”

I emphasized that I was not talking about Zenyatta’s proper place among female Thoroughbreds. I was talking about where she ranks among the greatest Thoroughbreds to have ever graced the American racing stage.

I began the exercise by asking, “Does Zenyatta belong in the Top 10?” At first, I thought she probably did. But, after considering who would be on such an all-time Top 10 list, I came to the conclusion that Zenyatta did not belong on it, at least not yet.

This is my list of the 10 best Thoroughbreds ever to have raced in this country:

1. Man o’ War
2. Secretariat
3. Citation
4. Kelso
5. Spectacular Bid
6. Dr. Fager
7. Native Dancer
8. Seattle Slew
9. Count Fleet
10. Forego

However, I do put Zenyatta in my next 10:

11. Ruffian
12. Zenyatta
13. Tom Fool
14. Affirmed
15. War Admiral
16. Buckpasser
17. Colin
18. Damascus
19. Round Table
20. Swaps

My Top 20 list of all time certainly helped me begin the process of compiling my list of the Top 10 males of the last 50 years. And then, as I turned my attention to constructing my list of the top 10 fillies of the last half-century, I started it with the only two fillies, Ruffian and Zenyatta, that I had put on my Top 20.

TOP 10 FILLIES OF THE LAST 50 YEARS

1. Ruffian
2. Zenyatta
3. Personal Ensign
4. Rachel Alexandra
5. Ta Wee
6. Shuvee
7. Lady’s Secret
8. Go for Wand
9. Azeri
10. Princess Rooney

oh my god.

Shoot, 7, 8 & 10 on the female list would have beat the snot out of #2 and #4 on a consistant basis.

I do, however, believe that Zenyatta is a million times better than Affirmed, War Admiral, Buckpasser, Damascus, Round Table, Swaps, etc.


I could name 50 horses in the past 20 years that have been better than Zenyatta & Rachel.

It's an illness. :zz:

Maybe he can get a video blog on PR too.

I don't know, Zenyatta better than Affirmed? War Admiral? I don't think I can buy that.

P.S. - I was also shocked Pioneer of the Nile wasn't on here at least somewhere.

So, the only horse he'd rank high since the early 80s, besides John Henry, is Zenyatta?

Zenyatta is the best horse since John Henry?

I could easily come up with 50 horses since JH that are better than Z.

Maybe even his beloved POTN.

Oh for sure.
Affirmed had a good record but he got it by running against mules like Spectacular Bid, Alydar, Seattle Slew, Exceller, Sensitive Prince, etc. He couldn't have handled the horses Zenyatta has faced.

<snicker>

and round table, 19th. lol omg, yeah, he's one of the members of the crop billed the best ever. threw down not one, but two win streaks the likes of which most horses never see. considered the top turfer ever in this country. EVER. zenyatta isn't fit to be mentioned in the same thread as most of those horses above.


and this, this is akin to blasphemy:

While I currently put Ruffian ahead of Zenyatta, it is getting very close to the point that I will decide to move Zenyatta above Ruffian. My thinking is I probably will make that switch if Zenyatta remains undefeated and manages to win a second Breeders’ Cup Classic this year.

ruffian lead at every call of every race she ever ran in. she never gave up the lead until she gave up everything.

Isn't there only one call that really matters in racing, the one that has 17 straight "1"s in it for Zenyatta.

I realize its hard to believe, but when you have people like Jon White and Steve Davidowitz saying that Zenyatta is the best mare or one of the two best mares they've ever seen, shouldn't that make you look at and appreciate Zenyatta rather than continue to degrade her and her performances???

So should I start changing my opinion on NFL players because John Clayton and Deion Sanders hold a different opinion?

Screw Jon White (whoever the **** he is) and Davidowitz too.:rolleyes: When the day comes that someone with their OWN opinion needs to start paying attention to people that are selling 'information' (Davidowitz is definitely doing this), that's the day they need to give up the game. Let's push the TOUTS out of the game.

Ranking a horse in any top whatever list prior to their careers being over is idiotic.

i'm not quite sure how saying she isn't comparable to ruffian is degrading. considering what ruffian did, how she ran, and her records and wins....i don't think i'm wrong in this case. i like zenyatta, as i do any racehorse, i appreciate what she's done. however, i would not go so far as to rank her above one of the best race fillies ever, nor do i think zenyatta belongs in the top 20 in the last fifty years. considering the elite company on that list, she does NOT belong. she's no weight carrier like kelso, she hasn't smashed a mile record under a huge impost like dr fager, she hasn't shipped all over and beaten all comers on mulitiple surfaces like round table, who ran for years, including in the spring classics vs the likes of iron liege and bold ruler. how is saying she does not compare to some of the truest greats ever to grace this sport degrading to her?! it is degrading to those great horses to have her on the same list! find one time that i 'degraded' her, her races, her performances. just one. now, if you find my lack of real respect for her in regards to the likes of damascus, sword dancer, and count fleet, war admiral, etc degrading...well, then i guess i'm guilty. gimme a break.

one damned win in unrestricted company and she's one of the top 20.

if that's considered great, i guess great isn't so great anymore. as for jon white, remind me how he was right on POTN winning the tc again...yeah, he's so smart. his opinion is unassailable.

Don't bother. Where does she rank if she lost by a head last out? Where does she rank if she loses to the usual drivel in the Hirsh or whatever soft spot the run in next? Here is a good way to measure the horses above, if any of them lost their last race would they plummet in the theoretical rankings like Zenyatta would?

How are you supposed to compare Zenyatta to dirt horses who have much more than 2 wins on dirt??!?!?!?! It makes nooooooooooooooo sense to me.

This is about as useful as comparing Bayakoa's career vs. Flawlessly! Ouija Board vs. Ghostzapper.

To make lists like Jon White made, you have to assume the dynamics of synthetic racing is similar to most dirt tracks, especially the type of dirt tracks the top horses on those lists ran on. Otherwise, it's a difficult comparison given the differences in what it takes to win on each surface.

What, no Colin? Sysonby? Domino? Salvator? Lexington? American Eclipse? Sir Archy? When you say "ever to have raced in this country", you are covering a lot of time and a lot of types of racing. I think this list covers only the "modern era", post-WWI, but even then, it is heavily weighted to the post-WWII era.

I believe he had Salvator #2 on his 'men I want to cuddle with' list.

Agree, completely.

Two words...

Anabaa's Creation.

That is all.

no, if anything it makes you question Jon White and Davidowitz

Hasn't J. White been sort of discredited in so far as his opinion on the relatively ability of horses goes after the 2009 Triple Crown series?

So they both choose to ignore "grass" horses that have impacted the sport for generations, but they make no such limitations on synthetic specialists? And while they exclude grass horses, where exactly does John Henry rank with just the dirt efforts?

Pepper's Pride had 19 straight 1's and retired sound and undefeated.

Difficulty of schedule and quality of performance both matter a whole lot more to me than results. It's not hard to look visually impressive when you're going by pathetic horses like Dance to My Tune and Taptam in the late stages of a race. A Euro reject who really loves rubber tracks almost beat her despite racing for the first time off of a 3 month layoff and losing a shoe on the far turn in her most recent race.

Obviously Zenyatta would crush the hapless Pepper's Pride, but she's mostly stayed home and dined on cupcakes for much of her career. The few times she's really needed to deliver a somewhat respectable performance to win she has done it, and her trainer is the best out there at pointing for a goal and getting the peak effort.

I don't have a whole lot of respect for our turf horses and synthetic horses. They're junk in relation to whats in Europe and probably no better than a lot of countries where Americans hardly know racing even exists. Our dirt horses are almost always so wildly superior to other countries that it isn't even funny. Zenyatta, Nashoba's Key, Informed Decision, Ventura they are truly our all-time great rubber females. They are the four prettiest girls in the entire history of Camp Fat. To Zenyatta's credit, she's had two wins when she's left her fat camp stomping grounds ... the problem was neither performance was that inspiring and her competiton wasn't even close to being on par with the attached Grade 1 status.

who believes in any of this dribble anyway? some moron prints up one these lists and its supposed to be the holy grail of racing? its like some of these threads. "what was the best 5 defeats of male horses by a feamle since 2005" or some such crap. does it really matter? how does anyone know? were they out there running in the field? who crowns these so called "experts " with the authority to claim such crap? and furthurmore, who are the fools that read this stuff and buy into it? i hope they bet horses.....lol. #7 or #8 on the list is better than #4....even though #8 raced 45 year ago and died about 35 years ago. instead of handicapping and winning some money...i think i'll analyze this and waste my time, telling folks why #5 is better than #6...then people wonder why this guy sucks.....its hilarious to read and see people argue...but it makes no sense whatsoever!

Cigar
 

How can Zenyatta make the list while Cigar does not?
or for that matter Curlin?

Curlin gets to race on dirt he wins the BC Classic
Zenyatta doesn't race on plastic and she wins the Apple Blossum

:tro:

C'mon though. A healthy dose of delusion isn't all bad is it? I mean the cast of the Jersey Shore's gettin' paid on account of delusion.

PS. Speaking of which, if Snooki or the Situation presents the trophy at the Haskell, gag me with a spoon.

The article did say "in the last 50 years", for what it's worth.

It's still a laughable ranking for a horse that has largely faced nothing. Part of that isn't her fault- there isn't quality competition for her to face right now in ANY division. But in my humble opinion, you gain the level of "greatness" required to be on this type of list by facing, and beating, horses that are either on this list as well or would be under some consideration. If none of those are available, then dominance can be looked at as a proxy- and despite winning 17 in a row, only a few times has she been dominant on a Ruffian type level.

Workouts and dance move dominance do not count.

(emphasis added)

A very good observation, CS.

--Dunbar

No, because Zenyatta has done the undoable, win at the age of 6, so if she loses now, it's because she's raced till she is long in the tooth.

I thought he would have had him in top 5.