All this Hatin on Lava
 

Je wizz. Horse is racking up win after win. Makin all kinds of money for all kinds of people now and down the road. Look at all the hatin on here. Is it because this horse races on the West Coast?

How about just sayin what ya know is true, Lava is making a lot of people a lot of money. Props to Lava and Lava's connections.

Again, what is the point of your post? I don't see one other than stating the obvious and what everyone has conceded. WHo would say that he hasnt won a lot of money for people? But the issue has been raised about hwo he stacks up overall in HOY comparison and how he may fare if he leaves his home confines.
So lest get you on the record now, do you believe he will win a race if shipped away from Cali this fall? Put me down for an adamant no way in hell.
I've been watching Good Reward since he was a pup. I caught him once at a nice price in the Manhattan with a lucky good trip. But to beat him(on your home track no less when GR has the worst post and a style that doesnt suit that track) by a few lengths isn't exactly HOY type stuff. Good Reward didn't run in the WHitney, do you know why? Because he couldnt hit the board at ****ing Prairie Meadows, thats why. But he can run a strong 2nd to Lava Man? Umm, thats not hating Curt, thats called common sense and understanding what you are seeing.

Mike, what would make you appreciate Lava Man more? If he won by 20 lengths, would you be saying this? I'll take Lava Man over Flower Alley any day of the week. At least he's consistent (whether or not he wins by open lengths.)

Cajun he has to beat Grade One horses. Beating Magnum and Ace Blue and Good Reward is simply not enough to impress me. I love the horse and his story. But I can promise you that if he ventures out of Cali that he will meeting much better than Good Reward.

Whenever this horse beats good horses OUTSIDE of sunny California, I'll jump on the bandwagon. For right now, I'll pass...

Agreed. But the connections are doing what I would do and what is right. Hes a gelding and his only job is to make money in the most expensive races they can run in at home against the easiest competition. Its the right thing to do. I appreciate that and how good a horse he is. But when I hear HOY stuff being bandied about he really should have to beat better horses. If hes as good as those who think he is say he is, then why would this be a problem? If hes truly that good he should be able to do that. Yet, I don't see any proclamations that he will accomplish this. Sure sounds strange to me, thats for sure. All these folks telling us he should be HOy yet none of em will predict victory if he leaves california. You can't have it both ways, hes either the best horse and a deserving HOY who can win outside of Cali or he isnt. So who wants in on how he does if he leaves cali? Anyone, Bueller? Anyone?

And just who is much better this year? Flower Alley? LOL

I'm having a hard time understanding how Perfect Drift, Giacomo etc. aren't grade one horses. Last time I checked, they were...

I'll be honest, I am more impressed with Bright One than Lava Man, but the point is... the horse has won and done everything asked of him. I will take my chances and say that he will hit the board in the Classic if he goes.

Oh please Cajun, talking about slanting something to make a point(or to attempt to). Do you really believe that Giacomo and Perfect Drift are grade one horses NOW!!!! That would be like beating Funny Cide and saying you beat a multiple grade one winner!!! Giacomo has one grade one win in his life that was over a year ago and when the hell was Perfect Drifts last grade one win? Neither horse is NOW what they were. So lemme ask you this, whos the best horse that you feel that Lava Man has beaten this year? I can't wait to hear this one!!!!!

What difference does it make, Mike? My point isn't who he has or hasn't beaten. The point is he has done EVERYTHING he's been asked to with the exception of two bad races last year. The horse could run very well at Churchill for all you know. And right now, who will he meet in the Classic? Bernardini, Flower Alley, Invasor, etc? There may be 3 or 4 horses that are more talented than he is right now with Bernardini and Invasor included. Either way, he STILL has a shot at hitting the board. Would you argue with that?

Ok, here we go!!! Here is the list of runners up to "HOY" Lava Man so far this year, in chronological order.

Whos Crying Now -(ex Calder runner up in small stakes)

Magnum-(never won a grade one, come to think of it, his only graded win was a grade 3 in the mud at Lone Star)

Cheroot- useful Cal Bred who was just beaten like a drum in a small stakes race

Kings Drama- grade one winning grass horse(last years Sword Dancer) who is in bad form this year and has yet to win a race.

Ace Blue- what can I say?

Good Reward- is now 1-8 lifetime on the dirt, with one second and no thirds. Most recent race was an off the board finish at Prairie meadows.

Now if you think that a lineup deserving of HOY stature I just have to beg to differ. Lava is a great horse, a horse with speed and guts. But to be HOY you really have to beat much better than that. If he comes East and does so then he is a lock to get HOY. So where are all the predictions that he will do so? Thats the part I don't understand. All these folks proclaiming him HOY and the best I can coax out of anyone is that he may "hit the board" in the Classic? Now how does this work exactly? I really don't get it. One minute hes HOY and the next minute noone will say he can come East and win? Explain to me where my logic is off.

Perhaps you should read my previous posts then, because I never once said he'd be HOY. The only point I was trying to make is that the horse very well may ship east and do well in the classic. That's ALL I said.

Mike, respectfully, no one in this thread says he's going to be HOY. I personally think he should be considered for it at this point, given that horses like FA are also still in contention. That seems fair. It certainly doesn't mean I think he'll get it -- much comes down to what should be a good race in the BCC. I'm not really sure who you're arguing against.

I know thats what you said. But I posed that question to one and all and noone will tell me yet that they think he will come east and win. And I never have hated on Lava, quite the contrary, its a treat to see him run. Hes got guts and speed. But he tried the East Coast thing last fall and it didn't work out real well to say the least. You can't win HOY beating Cheroot and Ace Blue and Good Reward and Whos Crying Now and Magnum and Kings Drama. Thats all I'm saying. Do you really interpret that as hating or common sense?

I don't know, does anybody think Lava Man was absolutely all out to win that race? Looked to have the thing in control from start to finish. I don't see why he can't run with Invasor and the like.

Just because it's fresh on my mind, let me mention that I just finished with the new Man o' War book. Man o' War, by all accounts, is arguably the best horse to ever run. That being said, my man beat some absolute dogs in a few of his races by no more than a length or two.

Now, I'm not comparing little old Lava Man and one of the all time greats, but I just thought I'd throw out there that there are times where a length and a half is a lot more than a length and a half.

By the way, this East Coaster isn't afraid to say Lava Man is the early frontrunner for HOY. I mean, for chrissakes, the horse has won FOUR GI races this year - one on the turf - and has never really been challenged. What other horse stacks up with that? Bernardini maybe, maybe Invasor, but that's about it.

Slot, he looked like he wasn't trying too hard to me. Seemed content to cruise at the end and needed a few quick taps to pick it up a notch for the late-runners (who were going all out). I think LM will have something left in the tank for the next one.

I wouldn't interpret it as either. LOL :p

Until the last few preps for the classic are ran, I'll withhold my judgement on whether or not I think he can actually WIN the classic. Right now, it doesn't make much sense to pick the winner until the field is announced and we see the rest of the Classic contenders run their preps. Don't you think so?

I have a hard time understanding how you can hold it against him that he lost by shipping east last year. If I recall, wasn't the horse having hoof problems and wasn't 100% to begin with? I'm willing to give him another chance to redeem himself at CD.

I don't need to see PP's or entries to know Lava Man is a legit contender for the Breeders Cup Classic.

Of course he's a legit contender. The question is... do you think he can WIN the whole damn thing? I DO need to see PP's and entries before I make that call.

Based on this year's form? Of course I think he can win the thing. I think Bernardini could be the goods and could also win, same with Invasor. Shoot, I wouldn't even put Sun King out of it if he continues with his recent form. I've been on the Flower Alley bandwagon forever, and I still think he'll be a contender once we get to BC day.

Would you make your pick right now without seeing PP's? 5 horses can't win it. So which one would you pick?

Well let's reiterate here, who exactly has anyone beat this year? Flower Alley beating nobodies at Monmouth is evidently a big thing, Invasor was life and death to beat Sun King, who is not a Grade #1 winner, and Bernardini is running in restricted races at least now, so Lava Man needs to step it up to be deemed a worthy HOY candidate????!!!!!!!!! The horse has only won 4 Effing Grade 1's on both surfaces, is undefeated this year, and guess what? Anyone superior to him is more than welcome to come out and challenge him, why the hell should he have to travel, COME GET HIM!!!!

LOL!!! WHy should he have to travel? LOL!! Thats the cowardly response I was looking for. Thanks for making my point.:)

LARhage, honestly, I'd go with Lava Man if forced to choose today. Obviously, things can change in the next two months, but on August 21, that's my choice. Think this year's BCC is solid on top.

Sorry, that was Cajun that made that post. My bad.

He's as big a coward as Mineshaft!!!!!

Its so funny how Lava Man races badly on the East after a hard campaign and it's held up as a barometer of his form forever, Saint Liam can get his ass handed to him in California and all the crybabies deem the track the culprit, talk about having it both ways!!!!!

So bascially Lharge you think that that everyone should skip the JCGC and BCC and travel on out to Cali to run in some podunk race? See heres how it works, you have to send the horse to the races that matter to win HOY, the horses don't come to you.

My God, the horse is the first horse IN HISTORY to sweep the big three California races in the same year, he's undefeated, answered every call, and is the feel-good story of the year in racing (depending on Barbaro's outcome)....of course he's HOY if the voting was today! The only other horse that could be considered would be Barbaro. Could he beat the "mighty" (sic) east coast horses if he ships? I think he run them into the ground! It's just as valid to ask...could they ship to California and beat him?? Putting a horse down because a particular horse finished a non-threatening second to him is crazy...somebody always finishes second, even if his name is Hookwink...now there was a race to build stature (yet all anyone says is "Wow, Man O War once won a race by 100 lengths"). Lava Man is the on-track story of the year in racing and until proven otherwise, is the best horse in America...PERIOD!!!! You want some...come get ya some!...or, as Slick Ric says, "To be the man, ya gotta beat the man!"

Why is the JCGC any more of a prestigious prep than the Pacific Classic or any other California race, the difference here Oracle is the West coast horses seem to have to adhere to this standard of racing on the East or their legitimacy is questioned, the East coast horses can run against no better fields and they get this pass as if they are always facing quality, the fact of the matter is they AINT!!!! Who is so good on the East Coast that Lava Man should be afraid of? I think when they all meet up in the Classic, than that should be fine, why should the West coast horses have to constantly be criticized for not running East? It seems to me more west horses run better in the east than vice versa. This was like the Azeri campaign, they all knocked her till the B.C. , than there was no knocking. Agood horse is a good horse, it floors me that people suupposedly in the know can question the heart and integrity of a horse like this, he's a dual surface Grade 1 winner who runs his eyes out, he would be the darling of the racing world if he was trained in the East, it's just a travesty. I love good horses like this, I've been just as big a fan of Eastern horses as Western, and I NEVER stipulate they should have to run in the West to prove their worthy of adulation, this Eastern bias is sickening.

He also won a grade 1 on TURF this year too.. but who'd he beat in that race? ;)

I agree. Give this horse some credit for his great accomplishments this year. We'll see how he stacks up at the end of the year.

No, but Seek Gold and King's Drama are.

He is the kind of horse that likes to toy with his opponents, like Seabiscuit used to do. He waits on them. I don't know if you noticed that the horse who looked him dead in the eye throughout the first half of the race finished last. In the Hollywood Gold Cup, he was toying with Magnum until he saw Ace Blue coming. Then, he accelerated again.

lol waits for horses, id like to see him wait for Flower Alley and INvasor..lol

That is what he did in the Hollywood Gold Cup. That is why the jock on Magnum pushed Magnum to the rail. He knew that Magnum would never get by Lava Man while Lava Man was right beside him looking the horse in the eye. When the jock on Magnum made that move, Magnum actually gained back on Lava Man until Lava Man saw Ace Blue coming. Then, Lava Man turned it on again, and those two quickly got away from Magnum.

I will be very surprised if FA is ever the horse that he once was. I would put Lava Man right at Invasor's ability. He may even be better than Invasor. Lava Man is a horse who consistently runs the last quarter of a mile in under 25 seconds on the dirt. On the turf, he is faster. In the Charles Whittingham, his last quarter of a mile was an unbelievable 22.9 seconds. Of course, his first half mile was much slower in the CW than it is in most of his dirt races.

If he had to wait for Flower Alley he'd have to learn to run backwards.

I could not have said it better myself.

Except for the fact that St. Laim won the MOST IMPORTANT race for older horses, that'd be the Breeders Cup Classic. Lava Man won't do that, especially with Invasor and Bernardini there. My guess, "something" will happen that'll prevent him from running in the Breeders Cup. Seabiscuit he isnt; yet to see the media jump on the Lava Man bandwagon. I wonder why that is.

Well....I'd say mostly because the "media" only really covers the Triple Crown races.

And Lava Man is a gelding, why would they duck folks in the Breeders Cup Classic? It's not like they have something to gain by not running, and it's not like Slew City Slew is a super active sire anymore either.

It's great how folks can see the future...will be interesting to hear the excuses if Lava Man rolls across the finish line leading by open lengths in the BCC. Saying it "can't" happen or he "won't" run is the stuff of foolishness...whistling past the graveyard!