I Really Wish I Could Have Seen......
 

Grand Canyon as a 3yo.

Landaluce as a 3yo.

How the BC Distaff would have turned out had Go for Wand not broken down.

Lost Code in the 1987 and 1988 BC Classics.

King Glorious face Easy Goer and Sunday Silence.

The 1987 Travers on a fast track so when Java Gold kicked ass, there would have been no excuses.

Dinard, Event of the Year, and Dehere in their respective Derbies.

Arazi sent to the Derby with more than that one 8f grass prep.

Easy Goer, Sunday Silence, and Holy Bull complete their 4yo seasons.

Ghostzapper vs. Smarty Jones.

Candy Ride in the 2003 BC Classic.

Zenyatta face the boys.

Manila in the 1987 BC Turf

I really wish I could have seen....
 

Secretariat run live.

Funny Cide vs Empire Maker, part 4 in the Travers 03, instead of the worst Travers ever run.

One more rematch between Certifiably Crazy and Dave...7 head to heads werent enough.

Kelly Kip period. He was sheer brilliance.

Mineshaft in the Classic.
Point Given in the Classic.
Bernardini mature a month earlier and run in the Derby.
Candy Ride just simply race more.
Barbaro not break down...I think Bernardini ran a 117 so I think he would have beat Barbaro, but that could have been some kind of rival.
Zenyatta vs Rachel in the Woodward, if the race was ran the same, Zenyatta would have beat her.
Commentator stay healthy.
Zenyatta vs The Boys
Rachel vs Icon Project at 1 1/4
Icon Project run in the JCGC

The great, great, great two year old Swear survive past his two year old season.

Red Ransom and Eastern Echo have careers.

danzig run more than three times.

the bid with a different jock in the belmont.

seattle slew NOT run in the swaps.

Grand Canyon as a 3yo.

2nd San Vicente and San Rafael to Mister Frisky
2nd Blue Grass to Summer Squall
1st Lexington
16th Kentucky Derby
5th King's Bishop to Housebuster
retired

Landaluce as a 3yo.

5th Hollywood Futurity to Roving Boy
1st Las Virgenes
1st Santa Susana
5th Santa Anita Derby
6th Test to Gold Beauty

Lost Code in the 1987 and 1988 BC Classics.

Would have allowed Cryptoclearance to run 3rd in consecutive years instead of Judge Angelucci and Waquoit.

King Glorious face Easy Goer and Sunday Silence.

King Glorious 3rd in a 3-horse field. By 10.

The 1987 Travers on a fast track so when Java Gold kicked ass, there would have been no excuses.

Other than every other starter in the race ran once every two weeks since February, including 2 if not 3 Classics.

Dinard, Event of the Year, and Dehere in their respective Derbies.

Dinard: Funny Cide still would have been the first gelding to win Derby since Clyde Van Dusen.

Event Of The Year: Would have been transfered to Dick Mandella a year sooner after skipping the Illinois Derby (won by the mighty Yarrow Brae) to be an also-ran at CD.

Dehere: Would have reversed form on Tabasco Cat, but not Brocco.

Arazi sent to the Derby with more than that one 8f grass prep.

8th after a brilliant mid-race move.

Easy Goer, Sunday Silence, and Holy Bull complete their 4yo seasons.

Easy Goer:

2nd Arlington Match Race w/ Sunday Silence
2nd Woodward to Dispersal
2nd Jockey Club Gold Cup to Flying Continental
2nd NYRA Mile to Quiet American
retired

Sunday Silence:

1st Arlington Match Race w/ Easy Goer
1st Goodwood
3rd BC Classic
retired

Holy Bull:

2nd Donn to Cigar
1st Westchester
1st Met Mile
1st Brooklyn
1st Iselin
1st Whitney
2nd Woodward by a nose
1st NYRA Mile
retired

Ghostzapper vs. Smarty Jones.

Smarty Jones last.

Candy Ride in the 2003 BC Classic.

2nd to Pleasantly Perfect.

Zenyatta face the boys.

Add one length to Life Is Sweet's Hollywood Gold Cup effort.

Would you please do that to my list.

Or.........NONE of the above.

Agreed!
i'd like to have seen Afleet Alex live too.

Agreed with you guys about Big Red, but I just got finished reading Ruffian and never realized how special she was. I wish I could have seen her race too.

Greatest avatar of all time, or at least the past 17 years

Isn't it amazing that a horse like that can run a 120 Beyer as a 2yo in the Hollywood Futurity and obliterate 2nd place finisher Farma Way.

And also at Hollywood Park - Favorite Trick gets voted Horse of the Year after obliterating a terrible Canadian horse and a lifelong maiden with a 101 in a year when the handicap division was at its deepest and the 2yo division was markedly below par.

People wonder why I thump hardcore with speed figures when I talk about evaluating top horses from different time periods ... and yet the same speed figures are down quite a ways on factors that determine whom I bet ... look no further than Favorite Trick.

Mineshaft in the Classic.

Dead heat with Candy Ride for 2nd.

Point Given in the Classic.

Dead heat with Include for 7th.

Bernardini mature a month earlier and run in the Derby.

8th after brilliant mid-race move.

Candy Ride just simply race more.

2nd BC Classic (deadheated w/ Mineshaft)
1st San Pasqual
1st San Antonio
1st Santa Anita Handicap
1st Shoemaker Mile
1st Hollywood Gold Cup
1st Pacific Classic
3rd Woodward
1st Jockey Club Gold Cup
2nd BC Classic

Barbaro not break down...I think Bernardini ran a 117 so I think he would have beat Barbaro, but that could have been some kind of rival.

Scratched at the gate after breaking through. Off 6 months.

2007:
1st Canadian Turf
3rd Maker's Mark
1st Woodford Reserve
3rd Manhattan
1st Iselin
2nd Woodward
3rd Jockey Club Gold Cup
5th BC Classic
retired

Zenyatta vs Rachel in the Woodward, if the race was ran the same, Zenyatta would have beat her.

Sea The Stars by 5.

Commentator stay healthy.

unplaced in 4 straight BC appearances (2 Sprints, 2 Classics).

Icon Project run in the JCGC

Eased. Vanned off. Bowed tendon.

:D thanks!

I don't know man .... that was a mind-bogglingly bad field.

Steppenwolfer ran 3rd and the 2nd place finisher was coming off of a 20+ length drubbing at the hands of Sinister Minister - albeit against a biased track.


Bernardini was too much of a finisher to flatten out against that.

There were too many variables. I presumed he still only had his existing race record (minus the Withers), which put him at a huge disadvantage in terms seasoning.

I suppose if he "matured" earlier, he would have run in at least one significant Derby prep. In that regard, he could have won the Lexington. That would have been enough to get second.

Nonetheless, you love to knock Bluegrass Cat (I don't really blame you) as part of that weak field, but didn't he run a couple decent numbers later on?

Obvious choice, I wish I was at Belmont in 73 to watch Secretariat run.

My not so obvious choice Makybe Diva's third straight Melbourne Cup in 05.

I wish Barbaro would have completed his 3 year old campaign.

He was 2nd to Jazil in the Belmont with a 99, won the Haskell with a 106, and was beaten 7.5 lengths to Bernardini with a 105 in the Travers and that was it.

He was kind of a poor mans Any Given Saturday.

The Westchester and Brooklyn?? I guess Cigar beats him again by a nose in the Woodward? :confused:

His intended campaign was supposed to be...

Olympic
Donn
Santa Anita Handicap
Met Mile
Iselin
Woodward
BC Classic

:zz: :zz: :zz:

What - you think Bluegrass Cat was a great horse?

Here are the final 6 starts of his career:

* 2nd by 2 to Deputy Glitters in the Tampa Derby

* 4th by 21 lengths to Sinister Minister in the Blue Grass

* 2nd by 6.5 lengths to the slayer of Sharp Humor in the Ky Derby at a mere 30/1 odds in a race where Brother Derek was the ML favorite and Sweetnorthernsaint was post time favorite. Current steeplechase horse Steppenwolfer was 3rd.

* 2nd by 1.25 lengths to Jazil in the Belmont. Jazil still has alw conditions

* 1st by 7 in the Haskell Stakes. Praying For Cash was 2nd. The same Praying For Cash who was last seen running 8th beaten 13 lengths at 23/1 odds in an opt claiming race at DELTA Downs.

* 2nd beaten 7.5 lengths to Bernardini in the Travers.

I think he was implying with Grand Canyon and Landaluce, that had they not died, they'd have been Lukas'd, like most of his awesome 2yos of the 80s.

Capote, Houston, Ketoh (oh yeah, he died), Althea, etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc.

He was implying Sunday Silence was better than Easy Goer, something I'm not convinced of.

He was saying Java Gold had a soft schedule compared to the rest of the crop.

He obviously had no appreciation for King Glorious (the horse), as yeah, he is certainly one of those overlooked horses in history that most people did not appreciate.

I don't know what he was thinking with Dinard. That horse was a near certainty to win his derby. EOTY I agree with him, sorta. I doubt he could have beaten that field.

I'm with you on Arazi too. What a waste. I always felt that that ******* trainer sabotaged him to prove his point.

The last bits of his post I thought were good. Except for Candy Ride losing to PP.

Of course, had Grand Canyon and Landaluce not died AND not been Lukas'd, who knows what they could have achieved.

How come to be "Lukas'd" doesn't mean to be like:

Tank's Prospect
Winning Colors
Tabasco Cat
Thunder Gulch
Timber Country
Grindstone
Editor's Note
Charismatic
Commendable
Cat Thief
Serena's Song
Sharp Cat
Lady's Secret
Sacahuista

I mean, he's had a little success with 3yos.

Tank's Prospect - won the preakness and DNF'd in the Belmont, never running again.

Winning Colors - Never really the same after the Preakness. Stephens more to blame for that one I guess.

Tabasco Cat - won the preakness and belmont, then closed out his career going 1 for 6.

Thunder Gulch - Didn't make it to the BC of his 3yo year before being done.

Timber Country - Retired after Preakness.

Grindstone - I got a call a few minutes after the derby from a friend saying he was so messed up going into the derby, that immediately after the race the connections knew he was finished.

Editor's Note - After his Super Derby win, ran 11 more times with one win, an alw race. That was his only ITM performance, and 7 of those 11 races were double digit losses.

Charismatic - Broke down in the Belmont.

Commendable - you gotta be kidding me.

Cat Thief - Useful and did get the fluke BCC win. Worst crop in the last twenty years except for the Big Brown crop.

Serena's Song - She stayed good for a long time. Tailed off a bit at the end.

Sharp Cat - Got better with age.

Lady's Secret - Tailed off pretty bad at the end there.

Sacahuista - Nice filly

Most of those you list tailed off real bad, burned out or got hurt.
I also did mention he was more notorious with his 2yos in the 80s.

For a recent horse ... I would have liked to have seen Zaftig run on dirt again after her Acorn win last year.

In just her 5th lifetime start, Zaftig won the Acorn with a 113 Beyer.

Since they've been published in the DRF in 1990, here are the top 3 all-time fastest winning Beyers in the Acorn.

* 2008: Zaftig (113)
* 1993: Sky Beauty (107)
* 1997: Sharp Cat (103)

At one point - Sky Beauty was 12-for-12 with 7 Grade 1 wins at Belmont Park. She was the queen of Belmont.

Sharp Cat won back-to-back Grade 1's by daylight with Beyers of 112 and 119 at Belmont in her final two starts there.

Zaftig ran exactly 8.5 lengths faster than the average winning Acorn figure... and the Acorn is a very serious race. Winners over that span include Meadow Star, Prospectors Delite, Sky Beauty, Inside Information, Sharp Cat, Jersey Girl, Three Ring, Bird Town, and Round Pond.


Zaftig came back injured .. and made just one more start in her career. She finished 3rd off the layoff in last years synthetic BC Filly and Mare Sprint and got hurt again. It sounded a lot like her decision to run in the BC last year was an owners decision...and she was rushed to it.

Yeah, no doubt she was the best 3yo filly based in this country last year.

Plans change when you get beat. Gotta start from scratch sometimes. No way he was going to Santa Anita to run 10f.

Great, Bluegrass Cat? He was not even good.
Roman Ruler was much much better.

what it was like to be at the track when it was the most popular sport in America.

see Man O War and Citation race.

Sound Big Brown VS sound War Pass.

Sound Quality Road VS sound I Want Revenge

RA VS sound Zaftig, sound Icon Project, Careless Jewel, and Zenyatta at 9fs.

Surprised no one said for Cigar to stay on the dirt after his huge maiden win.

Cigar was from the all-time worst 3yo male crop ever .. had he stayed on dirt after that huge maiden win he'd probably go down as one of the 5 best horses ever. Might have won 26 in a row instead of just 16.

Smarty with a different jock in the Belmont...

Secretariat run at 4 so there would be no question as to the greatest horse ever.

A.P. Indy in the Derby

Dinard was nowhere near a certainty.

A deserving favorite perhaps, but then again, IIRC, Hansel was running much faster (at least in the Jim Beam). Obviously Hansel bombed on Derby day, but was his best race ultimately better than Dinard's? Quite possibly. What if he showed up on Derby Day?

And what of Best Pal? Yes, Dinard got the better of him in the San Rafael (in Best Pal's 3yo debut off a 3 month layoff) and the Santa Anita Derby. But wasn't that somewhat of a winning profile for several Derby winners that decade? Silver Charm, Real Quiet, and Go For Gin were also only earning placings in their preps before "peaking" on Derby day. And in fact, Best Pal ran a huge race only to be beaten by Strike The Gold, who at the time was in very good form and getting as much press as any of the other principals. His typical Zito decline later on has no relevance here.

Also of note is the results of the Strub series later that year when the roles between Dinard and Best Pal were reversed. Best Pal, in top form, was not threatened in the slightest by Dinard in either the San Fernando (at 9f) or the Strub (at 10f). Obviously, its quite possible Dinard's injury had residual effects that kept him from realizing his full potential, but obviously not enough to keep him from competing in Grade 1 events. Interestingly, both he and old rival Olympio never ran again after chasing Best Pal in the Strub series.

Finally, Dinard worked notoriously poorly leading up to the Derby (6f in 1:18). Was he injured in the work? Probably, but he certainly didn't limp off the track (the injury wasn't detected until 4 or 5 days post-work), so it's still possible he didn't care for the CD surface.

These are all kind of about distance and surface... Even though War Pass plodded home in The Wood, I think he would beat Big Brown up to 9 furlongs.

Quality Road is serious, I wish they would lay him off till next year. He would be the best handicap horse around, I know its crazy to still think QR is better then Summer Bird, but I do.

I think your overating Zatfig just a tad. Careless Jewel is ok, Zenyatta would have won The Woodward for fun, its a shame she did not come. Sadly enough Icon Project might have been the best of this group and we will never get to see it.

All of my comments are based on dirt races, thats part of why I wish QR would be layed off till a Gulfstream campaign. I really beleive he is as good of a horse we have had in a few years. Summer Bird is a grinder, hes really good as well, but I feel QR if right can be BRILLANT.

I am pretty sure that he was a lot better off running in races where the next best horse was Music Merci.