So just WHO targets and kills civilians??
 

Those of you who think Hezbollah just showed up 6 weeks ago are knowingly wrong. They've been a part (sometimes a bad part) of the landscape in the Middle East for a long time. And it's very much debatable which side took the first "go to war" actions.

For all of you generalizing Israeli casualties as the Arab targeting of civilians, here is a count of the dead:

Israel
Civilians 39
Soldiers 109
Total 148

Lebanon
Civilians 689
Fighters 102
Total 791

Interesting numbers.

For those wondering what the Israeli military thinks of the deal their politicians made, here's what Lt. Roy Shaposik of the Israeli Army had to say, "We didn't get anything out of this. I think this is the first time that Israel lost a war."

Just another way to view things other than the ultra pro-Israel/ Anti-Arab way of rationalization.

B....now I am as white bread american as they come. Hitler would have taken one look at me and told me to go make tons of babies. Hitler was one evil SOB and in no way do I believe in anything he wanted, but merely providing you with a background as to my heritage....Im about as WASPy as they come....so I have no dog in this fight over there. But, if it is true that Hezbollah is hiding, living and fighting among the civilians, isn't it true to expect the civilian casualty count to be higher?

I mentioned on here a couple weeks ago that I was furtunate enough to sit down privately with a Colonel in the Israeli military and get that side of the whole ordeal. I know of no one that is able to sit me down and explain to me the other side.

I am not passing judgement by anymeans, only trying to better understand the whole war going on from both sides.

hezbollah sets up their rocket launchers in the middle of their civvies....on purpose. why? to make the 'evil israelis' appear even more so...why, the monsters. look at all the innocent people killed!

If you've read Seymore Hirsh's article in the New Yorker, you might get an insight as to what is really happening.
Bush gave Condi the instructions to stall...so Israel could go ahead and "defeat the terrorists".
Guess what?
They didn't.
Hezbollah is now claiming "victory" that they held off a surperior military force (third largest in the world).
Are the terrorists gaining confidence?
Unfortunately, this mess is just a pretext to divert attention from the US failure in Iraq prior to the November elections, where the Republicans will loose their majority in the House of Representatives.
The "War on Terror" has been the "play card". Feed the fear.
Reality is that the British were pushed to make arrests for the 9-11 type terror attacks, and people have lined up to take off their shoes, discard their toothpaste and lipstick...all to make the world more "secure". HMMM.
Reminds me of an "orange alert" two summers ago when the tunnels going into NYC were under threat, and I sat for hours in the heat on the NJ Turnpike.
Does this little boy "cry wolf" enough?
Seems that lots play along with the nonsense...even vote for it.

Now, the REAL future...
The US (Bush and neo cons) will use any and all pretexts for dropping 500K bombs (bunker busters) on already targeted Iranian sites....YES! IRAN!
Unfortunately, this action will not be won either. The US military does not have sufficient man power to put "boots on the ground". Already many troops are doing second and third tours in Iraq...trying to deny the reality of the "civil war" that was created by Bush's and his "policy advisors'" actions.

Two things to consider...
1) Disapproval of current policies by this administration, especially regarding Iraq are at an all time low...28% in favor.
2) Israeli actions against Lebanon, though unsupported by the vast majority of the world's nations, are only a pretext to future actions that will generate even more animosity in the Arab world. Seems that Hitler taught the Jewish people a great deal. Instead of learning from that lesson, the apply those lessons to others... and it will indeed cost us all, just like the misguided policies of the Bush administration.

This is pure spin....
1) where do these figures come from
2) the terrorists hide among the innocent
3) when you bite the big dog....

1) Lebanon has made outrageous claims of civilian casualties from the beginning, they have been exposed inflating civilian casualty numbers several times...the Israeli's can't provide accurate numbers regarding the Lebanese and there is no independent group there to my knowledge so I'd have to know exactly who is providing the numbers here!
2) As others have stated, the terrorists hid among civilian populations for the purpose of driving up these numbers.
3) Israel simply has more firepower...if the terrorists had the Israeli airforce, Israel would be carpet bombed and you know it!

...the answer to the actual question is terrorists.
 

So just WHO targets and kills civilians??


Terrorists.

That is simply a bunch of crap, the most outlandish stuff I've read thus far...comparing Israel to Nazi Germany...man, the true colors are starting to show now! A nation defends itself against terrorist attack and the "Hate America" crowd turns the entire thing into a Jew-Bush conspiracy! This post doesn't deserve a response except for the fact that some crackpots will actually buy it (obviously, it's posted here). What about the concerns of a prominent historian who states that August 22nd is a special day for the radical Islamics, the day a great Islamic warrior defeated his foes and stood victorious on the banks of Palestine and something else I didn't get about Mohammad...according to this guy, the crackpots in Iran have orchestrated this mess to draw world attention away from their nuke program and their fearless leader, you know..the guy who wants Israel destroyed and says the Holocaust never happened, is planning on answering the world regarding the nuke program on...August 22nd! His answer...nuking Israel and if possible us!
That theory is as credible as this crap!!!!!

Somerfrost,
Please take the time to read Seymore Hersh's article.
Pay careful attention to his last sentence.

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/conten.../060821fa_fact

like that last sentence is so profound. you can find it on posters in many breakrooms of companies, HR people seem to like it.

Somerfrost,
I just reread what you judged me to be...a part of the "hate America crowd".
Shame! Shame! Shame on you!
Do you really believe that?

If you do...there is no hope for your judgement of me.
I HAVE NOT judged you or the opinions you voice.

So, to clarify, for the hundredth time...
I LOVE America!
If I didn't, I wouldn't express my opposition to the insane policies that are bringing ruin to it.
To simplify...one can love America without supporting those that currently lead it down a road to disaster. I can love the USA without loving the current administration. There's a very big difference.
Your arguement and judgement reminds me quite a bit of Spiro Agnew, when he expressed disdain for those that spoke the truth regarding Viet Nam.
We both should remember how that turned out...and how Spiro did also.

I love America!


DTS

HR people ????????
Do you mean "human resources"?
Explain, as you seem either to be writing in code or are lazy with your typing.

yeah, human resources.

but i have to say dts, i can't believe you're comparing israels actions to hitler and germany, when they killed millions in death camps. that disturbs me.

and yeah, i'm feeling lazy tonite, another 12 hour day with me getting up before 3 am. but i get to sleep in tomorrow, til 4. yay

The Jewish people indeed went through horror...so many gone for an insane man's dream.
If my words disturb you, I apologize.
I was raised to "turn the other cheek", "give my cloak also".
Passing on injustices only perpetuates hatred.

Matt: 23: 28-29...
"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like white washed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones, and everything unclean. In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness."

Interesting quote for someone claiming not to be anti-Jew! While I understand the context within the scriptures, when used in this thread as a stand-alone quote...it smacks of anti-Semitism! Again, the Israelis have a right to defend themselves, just because they happen to be good at it is no reason to condemn them. As far as quoting the Christian Bible to justify a point of view...well, "Thou shalt not suffer a Witch to live!" Exodus 22:18....sorry, doesn't work for me!

I really debated with myself whether to post on this thread! DTS: What happened to the Jews can't be contained in one sentence! They haven't passed on the injustices of Hitler(that is outlandish) Since their statehood in 1948, the Israelis' have been in the forefront of the gathering storm bent on their destruction, with nary a moments peace. America came to their aid for many reasons, and America will rightly support them in these dark times! The thing that is apparent is your dizzying perception of All things Bush. the Scripture quote was aimed at the administration. You presume to know their souls,now?? That was a weak and errant slam! Also, I noticed that the article had such pin-point and irrefutable sources bursting out all over the pages. You really should at least start in the 'middle' before you swerve so viciously to the LEFT! Somer: you have issue with the Bible because of its' repudiation of Witchcraft in all forms! In previous posts you described yourself as somewhere between Christian and Wiccan....Well..the Wiccan thing hasen't been working out too good for you recently! Still time to get it right,my friend! If either of you Gents want to continue..it might be best to PM

While I respect all folk's right to worship and believe as they wish (as long as their beliefs don't harm others), I resent having the Christian scripture thrust upon me as "proof" of a given point of view! Also, I resent your implication that my beliefs are somehow tied to my recent misfortunes. Again, you are free to believe as you wish, I respect that...please respect my similar right! This is one of my big concerns about Christians....one way, and only one way is acceptable, otherwise it's off to the river of fire with you! Sorry, I don't believe in the devil, heaven (at least as you see it) or hell. I'm not being punished by your idea of god because I seek a different path, I'm merely realizing the consequences of decisions I freely made...no, not religious ones but matters of this world!

Somer: As I stated ..it would have been prudent to PM, instead of this forum. Firstly: I apologize if I offended you for what I said...but you don't get to cut out the parts of the BOOK because it interferes with your interpretation of life. And, believe me,Somer....what I stated wasn't said with reference to this time in your life! I enjoy you, especially since you give DTS what for(that flamer) It would be good to continue, but I'm not gonna do an ESPN thing over here. So...Pm me and we'll play Spiritual chess if you wish...Peace

It's 1:00 in the morning so maybe tomorrow (or later today to be accurate). I'm not cutting out parts though, simply saying that I personally can't accept the whole! The only scripture that I ever reference is Exodus 22:18, and that for a specific reason. Anyway...off to bed!

Off to bed with you then...take care! Later

1. you are wrong
2. you are wrong, again
3. you are correct
4. of course the U.S. was aboard. but you're wrong about any assault on Iran. The U.S. does not have the capacity and the Israelis had trouble getting food, water and field goggles to their troops 5 miles away.
5. there is hope for a backlash, yes. we can hope. but you can forget about your dream of riding on top of a nuke into tehran. it'snot gonna happen.
6. The Syrians are the "gamechanger" in all this. You should know that much by now.
7. Victory is in the eye of the beholder, I assume. All I know is the "blamestorming" is just getting started in TelAviv.
8. There is NO "heavy" fighting going on as you wrote.
9. Here's what is going on in Gaza:
http://www.theconservativevoice.com/article/16946.html

Timmgirvan,
You can label me a "flamer". It's quite ok with me.
I forgive you for saying so.
If you are unable to see any truth in the words I quote or the things I say, that's also fine with me.

Can I ask you a question?
Do you see any similartity between the Warsaw ghetto (1942) and Gaza (2006)?

Here are some more words that might further inflame you..."treat others as you would have them treat you".

DTS

For those that continue to believe in the lies of those that have proven their hypocrisy...
http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0815-31.htm

I'm as open minded as they come but I refuse to read any more from Common Dreams...find a site that cares about looking for the truth not forcing every square object into the round hole of some perverse form of political solipsism!

Hey Somerfrost,
I didn't write it, the senior senator from Mass did.
If you have no tolerance for views other than those that you "want" to read...
Do me a favor, don't read it!
DTS

I didn't read it...you come here day after day posting from this site, I don't care if the Pope wrote it, the only reason it appears in Common Dreams is it suits their political agenda! Try actually thinking for yourself instead of parroting this useless garbage...I read points of view from across the political spectrum and study philosophies far more diverse than most...you come here with the same tired regurgitated crap day after day! We get it, Democrats good, Bush bad!

DTS: How unfortunate that you chose to respond to something that wasnt directed to you, and failed to answer what I directed to you. I teasing called you a flamer because(as you've admitted before) you see things like the commondreams 'tripe' as truth, and your absolute 'bent' about Bush et all is regretable. When you quote something out of context and use it to bash someone you do it a disservice! I don't know much about Warsaw'42, but I doubt it has much to do with Gaza'06. As I stated before, Israel has had a bullseye on their back since 1948...they've withstood 20,000,000 Arabs at their throats and World opinion and scorn that is undeserved. People that call for peace, yet hold a dagger behind their backs. As for that last retort, I don't believe I have treated you badly, in any sense.

Somerfrost,
There are many things I've stated that didn't come from commondreams.
As I've prviously stated, if you don't want to read it, then do me a favor and don't.
If you really think that I am "parroting useless garbage"...then that's just another of your judgements.
For someone who is so very wise, that "reads across the political spectrum and studies philosophies far more diverse than most"...your close mindedness is quite obvious. Maybe it's time to open yourself to the ideas of others.
It's not only the misguided direction that this great country has been taken by people that have also made up their minds to pursue faulty agendas rather than discuss serious concerns with others, but also, the tactic of judging those that see differently, as your post demonstrates.
Your words are a microview of that which is at stake in the macroview.
Yes, the tragedy of those that inhabit the planet we share continues to be compromised by those that maintain extremely narrow views.
I feel great pity for you and those that your narrow thinking supports.

DTS

to be perfectly honest, if i had to choose between you, DTS, and somer, as to who held the narrow view, well...dts in a landslide.

Tim,
I asked that question because I do see a parallel between the confinement of the Jewish people in the Warsaw ghetto (1942) and their confinement of the Palestinians in Gaza (2006).
I DO see things differently than many people. I just don't tolerate being labeled or judged for presenting my opinions. Nor should anyone.
In other words, attack the premise that I present, not ME!
There is absolutely nothing wrong with people wishing to discuss peace.
The old Jewish proverb states that "There is power in words."
I hope they use them first if there is a problem, rather than F-16's with JDAMS.
Hatred once created takes a very long time to be forgotten.
Peace can only happen through trusting in meaningful dialogue. That assumes that there isn't a dagger behind their backs.
Both sides have been very wrong in this controversy.
It is my hope that there are some that arre wise enough to begin something that is right.
DTS

DTS: first things first..I did not attack you in any way...I said commondreams was 'tripe'! I referenced you being a Flamer teasingly because we had talked about it in another thread(last month I think) The Jews in Warsaw were prisoner helplessly herded there while the Palestinians are there because Israel relented and gave them space. That comparison isn't close. That line about hatred..what's up with that? Israel didn't foment the Bloodlust of the Arab countries! You say 'talk peace' with a civilization that is dutybound to erase your people from the face of the Earth(Arab words) Israel didnt start this...but, by God, they will finish it if pressed. Would you sit down at a table from someone who's 'suckerpunched' you before? I think not...without guarantees....which The Arabs will never do( rather they might because they know in their hearts what their sacred mission is...Death to Israel and the USA

There you go again, Dixie ...

... trying to muddle the argument with facts.

Hey ... can't you let your fellow forum members have their fantasies? Reality is very painful for them ... let the delusional be delusional.

I want to be wiccan!!! Where do you sign up?

I would agree with you there. You have one person who has probably voted for multiple people in both parties. Then you have another person who has probably never voted for one of the parties in his entire life, yet he calls the other person close-minded.

Who's you?

DTS, I think your words speak for themselves....when you throw out words such as "pity" when describing someone with a viewpoint other than your own, you can hardly claim to be open-minded! I do listen to all points of view THEN I make my own decisions based on my intellect (or lack thereof), experience and personal philosophy. You quote from those holding a viewpoint you share and scoff at anything that deviates. The Bush bashing goes on everywhere now days, you are far from alone and many of my Wiccan friends would agree with your point of view (that alone should give you pause), but twisting every news bite into a "Bush and the Jews are bad" mantra simply demonstrates a predisposition towards a strident philosophy of hatred...you can cloak it in religious references all you want but the anti-Jew emotions seep through!

Making fun of another's religion may seem funny to you Moodwalker...sorta use to it to be honest, but I simply consider the source!

Terrorists and extremists exist in all ME nations. Take a look at the Kahn Kahane Chai and The Jewish Front groups in Israel, just to name a couple.

Israel had a Prime Minister killed by a fanatical right wing member. Nobody ever said Israel or the US was absolutely clean of homegrown terrorists. Timothy McVea...

But honestly. By bringing up abberations in order to try and make a fair comparison between the State of Israel and Hezbollah is regrettable and disingenuous. Does Hezbollah let Jewish members of its "government" shout down an act during a "Knisset" (sp?) meeting?
Get real. There is no comparison on the whole. Anyone can pick individual events and use them to represent the whole. It is a very easy trick, but it is not helpful in searching for what really is happening.

What scares me is when a large group starts to proclaim that it is under seige and then perpetuates violent acts TARGETING TOTALLY INNOCENT PEOPLE claiming that God is on its side. And the moderate members of the so called down-trodden groups stop speaking because they are scared they will meet a similar fate or because they start believing. This my good friends of the board reminds me of a little party that got started in the 1930's in Germany and spread like wildfire. The movement of radical Islamic groups that has continue to rise and the MODERATE ISLAMIC LEADERS start backing down is very much like facist movements that we have seen in the past.
1. We got screwed
2. God is on our side (cant argue with that)
3. Kill in the name of God, sacrifice yourself to kill infidels
4. The majority of sane members of this group step aside and join.

This is a very scary trend that took total destruction of said group in the past. Total destruction. Not little incursions and constantly backing off because the problem is too big. This is very very frightening and any sane minded individuals should recognize this as a recipe for disaster.

If any of you have read The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich you know the parallels I am talking about. It is absolutely chilling.

Well, you do hold the majority viewpoint. But, disingenous or regretable as it may seem to you, I think a lot of people feel there is way more to it.

Those MODERATE ISLAMIC LEADERS you refer to have now lived their adult lives seeing the well spoken tones of reasonable people approach as flawed, failed and fruitless.

When the UN issues a resolution condemning some Israeli action (whatever it may be), it always, always, gets voted 13-1. The U.S. always "rejects" the resolution. No questions asked. The Arab street does not differentiate between Israel and the U.S., which while not disingenuous or regretable, sure as heck is lamentable.

So, yeah, that along with the Palestinian issue has the moderate Arabs, leaders or otherwise, having very good reason to hold the West in distrust and this is where the appeal of the edgier and worse (you call it what you want, that's ok) Islamic factions gain traction.

You could likely go on at length about how none of this rationalizes terrroists or behavior that supports terrorist groups and you'd be right. That does not, however, change the game. The game gets changed by starting to understand and appreciate how and why adversaries act as they do.

The U.S. now is seen by Arabs as so strongly Pro-Israeli / Anti-Arab that there is not a chance in hell that America CAN be a mediating leader in the region.

pgardn, you told me to get real, so I will. Do you know how the Iraqis refer to U.S. soldiers? They refer to them as The Jews. I don't care for the connotation but I don't think that's the effect we were going for. That's as real as I can get.

I agree with you that this is indeed very, very serious.

regards,
-s2s