Sea the Stars - How good?
 

The Guardian writer, Paul Hayward opines that Sea The Stars is an all time great, will he be coming to BC?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2009...s-horse-racing

"Alongside this pageant of equine brilliance an academic debate is hotting up. The respected Timeform organisation now rate Oxx's horse the equal of Dancing Brave, Shergar and Dubai Millennium on a ranking of 140. An emphatic victory in France or America could yet push Sea The Stars past Mill Reef (141) and Brigadier Gerard (144), those stars of the early 70s, to become the most exalted Flat racer of the post-war age."

I heard they split the Variant a couple of times.;)

He does not need to come to the BC to get a real idea of how good he is because many of the horses he has already beaten are coming. It will be interesting to see how they fare.

Coolmore has thrown a ton at him and he has responded every single time.

I look at his pedigree and the credibility of the people hyping him and I think he is an all-time great.

While many really wanted to see a Rachel-Zenyatta race, the real race to see would have been Sea The Stars against Zarkava at 12f. I really wish they brought back the filly at age 4. She looked like the best in a long time.

That Zarkava/Sea the Stars matchup would have been one for the ages. Both are exceptional racehorses and it would have been a matchup I would have made sure to have taken a day off work for that. I think Sea the Stars is the best one I've seen over there since Lammtarra.

While as impressive as he is, I am going to be a bit of a contrarian here, he's not as good as Dubai Millenium and he does need firm going so he does have weaknesses.

Best horse of my lifetime. His form is unknockable!! He is bomb proof!

In fairness to the horse, its his trainer who has stated that he isnt as good on soft ground. You could make an argument that he is suited by soft ground with his last run in Ireland being on softish ground where he put up a career best performance.. His form on soft ground as a juvenile wasnt too shabby either. Plus on breeding, he is bred to love the mud..

I think we all would love to see him run in the Arc, don't you feel this race is a must if he is to be included with the greats as in Nijinsky II? There are questions is he as effective at 1 1/2 as he is at 1 1/4. In addition Urban Sea's progeny have yet to transfer their turf form over to the dirt track now poly if The Classic is a consideration, I actually like the horses quite alot, just stirring up some conversation as his record is being somewhat unchallenged here, and there are few questions remaining to be answered to me atleast. But praise this high coming from you brock, he must be something special. While recognizing he's a very good horse, I want to see if he can clear a few more hurdles before I mention him in DM's class.

Interesting that you would say you think needs to be in the Arc but DM wasn't.

Yeah, he has already won the top 3yo race in Europe, the top all age race in Britain, the top all age race in Ireland, but what many legends of the past did was run in ALL the top events and win them. Therefore, I would love to see Sea The Stars run in the Arc. If you see him run, he only just uses the minimum amount of energy required, you can see he still has a lot left in the tank. Thats why he has been so consistently good this year. If he was to miss the Arc, travelling to the States and winning the Classic would be a fantastic achievement but I would have slight doubts about his ability to handle the poly. He sure looks like he could perform well on it, but you just dont know..

There are still those who knock him saying he isnt sure to stay 12f as his Derby win was won in a crawl (not quite that slow, but it pays to exaggerate!) The Arc would be almost sure to be run at a fast pace and I believe it would just make his dominance clearer. The Arc looks to be a high class renewal this year (a lot better than last year) and winning that would bring him to mythical status..

Just one thing I was looking up - In his 5 races this year, Coolmore have thrown 18 horses into his races without finding one who can beat him. And that's with a very talented trio of Rip Van Winkle (lost 3 times), Fame and Glory (lost twice) and Mastercraftsman (lost 3 times). Due to their lack of success this year, its more than likely that we see them next year and show off how good they really are in a post Sea The Stars racing climate..

Yes you are correct there, maybe I should have phrased it differently but I would have to see a performance as the demolition of the Dubai World Cup or the Prince of Wales' Stakes (his last race) to put him beside DM. DM only had one bad race but when he was on his game all his wins were so much better than his competition, toying with the opposition doesn't really do it justice.

His vids are on youtube if anyone has forgotten just what a freak he was.

Where would he rank to the likes of Hawk Wing, High Chapparal, Galileo, and dare I ask Dubai Millenium?

Im no expert, from what I have saw... I would say he is 1-2 on that list.

He definitely belongs with that select group of Ballydoyle's more recent greats! I would have mentioned Rock Of Gibralter however he was a mile specialist. This is where Dubai Millenium has the edge IMO his race in France (can't remember the name) at a mile showed his quality, he toyed with not tier 2 horses but a superb miler as Dansili, just think about that one at 1 mile. Not his preferred trip.

Didn't realize he is half to both Galileo and My Typhoon.

Don't forget Black Bellamy Sam... Obviously he missed the Urban Sea gene.

Urban Sea has three grade one winners, including Sea the Stars.

She also has two others that ran second in grade ones.

And yet another that never won a grade one but was still the champion two year old in Ireland.

I am guessing Live Oak has My Typhoon bred to Indy although I have no confirmation...I will bet that foal wins a G1?

I think Urban Sea got 4 g1 winners as Black Sam won a desperately poor edition of the Tattersalls Gold Cup, but they all count!!

Meant to respond to this post before today as I believe Rip Van Winkle who Sea The Stars has handled easily 3 times this year could well be the best horse Aidan O'Brien has trained. He could very easily end up (providing his feet stay OK) winning the QEII and Breeders Cup Classic.

I certainly think he is better than the 3 Coolmore horses that you mentioned. Dubai Millennium would compare with him though. Its tough to say. DM was brilliant on 2 surfaces but again, I dont think the form of the horses he beat was as solid as STS. Take for example DM's incredible Prince Of Wales stakes where he beat Sumitas by 8L and had Sendawar toiling. It was a great performance, but none of the horses behind DM that day ever won again. With STS, you see the horses he is beating easily, put up brilliant performances subsequently.. Mastercraftsman, Rip Van Winkle, Conduit, Fame and Glory..

We will know more after today!!

Now let me be a bit contrarian.

Dubai Millennium never won a G1 classic or wfa at 12f, the European classic distance. At 3, he showed he was a brilliant miler after he finished a well-beaten 9th in a sub-standard Derby. At 4, he won the World Cup 10f and the Prince of Wales's (10f) but never got the chance to show that, like Brigadier Gerard, that he could stretch his miler speed to 12f with his class. He was more of a 'might have been one of the greatest' than an actual member of the club.

I agree. I have no idea why he is always mentioned and a truly great horse like Zarkava is rarely mentioned. Zarkava was clearly a better horse than Dubai Millenium but I guess her short career may have a little to do with it.

Zarkava is consistently mentioned as a great horse, but we never saw how good she could have been...

Plus, Id love you to tell me (as well as the Racing Post and Timeform) why I am stupid for thinking Dubai Millennium was a better horse than Zarkava..

Comparing two super horses is crazy..

I did not say you were stupid I just think when he had his chance at 12f he looked like a very mediocre horse. Zarkava handled the 12f with ease and actually powered away at the end.

Dubai Millenium is mentioned much more than Zarkava too. It probably is because in America many do not even know about Zarkava but they know Dubai Millenium because of his Dubai race.

I do not go crazy over timeform ratings either. They rated Curlin above Zarkava which really is quite funny. She probably would have beaten him by 10+ lengths in a race like the ARC and two milers were able to beat him at his best distance of 10f.

I don't think it's saying you are stupid. I think it's a matter of preference. Some people require seeing things proven at the so called classic distances. Zarkava and Sea the Stars did that. DM didn't. I'm not one of those people and apparently neither are you. I think brilliance can be seen no matter the distance they run. I remember once asking Chris McCarron (who had ridden King Glorious and Sunday Silence and against Easy Goer) which of the three he thought was best. He said that up to 8f, they'd never catch KG, at 9f they'd probably just get him and they'd handle him at 10f. To me, that doesn't say they were better than him. Just that they were better at the longer distances.

For me, neither Zarkava, Sea the Stars, or DM were as good as Lammtarra, who I still believe is one of the three best horses I've ever seen and I never understand why he doesn't get more respect. What he did was unprecedented. And in Pentire, Freedom Cry, and Swain, he was beating top class horses just like Sea the Stars is.

I could watch Dubai Millennium's DWC every day...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmiYdsqH2fE

Form further enhanced by Rip Van Winkle's win in the QE II.

Theres your Classic winner if Sea The Stars doesnt show up..

Hard to disagree with that. He's a nice horse.

by some people's logic then, Sprinters just cannot be great horses because they havent won over a distance. That's just ridiculous to me..

I think the most impressive thing for me regarding Zarkava is how she drilled Goldikova at a mile. We knew Goldikova was good at that point but we've since seen just how good and Zarkava handled her. To have the stamina to beat the world's best 12f horses and the speed to beat the world's best miler is incredibly impressive.

Me too. I've always taken the view that it's harder to be the best at shorter distances than it is at longer distances because far more horses can run the shorter distances so the competition is deeper.

I would agree but if Summer Bird or Quality Road take a liking to Santa Anita they will be formidable opponents. Hold Me Back is another horse that looks pretty live. Based on their pedigrees Quality Road and Hold Me Back should really like Santa Anita and are very talented horses. Hold Me Back really is the sleeper in that race if he goes.

I'm going to assume this is a joke. Sincere apologies if you are serious but the mention of Hold Me Back is what makes me unsure.

Obviously Quality Road has the talent and the perfect pedigree. He looks like another miler like Ravens Pass was who will love the synthetic based on both both sides of his pedigree. Nobody will be shocked if he wins the Classic.

Hold Me Back though is a very underrated horse. That is why I said he is a sleeper. I really think both of the Winstar horses are very live. Colonel John is dangerous with the right trip. I think Hold Me Back will romp this weekend and be set up nicely for the Classic.

Based on today's race it looks like you were rigth about Hold Me Back. I will be sticking with the other Giant's Causeway Colonel John, but I can't see him beating any of the Europeans. Maybe a Quality Road or a Summer Bird but I doubt it. I could see the Europeans running 1-2 again.

You see why I thought your inclusion of Hold Me Back in the discussion was a joke?

Please DONT EVER INSULT GIANTS CAUSEWAY LIKE THIS. Colonel John is a Tiznow.... Tiznow is a good sire, but no GIANT.

Giants Causeway has a nice derby horse, Belmont Race 5 today.

Giant's Causeway would be in Japan or maybe Ireland right now if it weren't for synthetic surfaces.

Of course, by the same token, Tiznow would probably be in California.

Thats not true... He has had solid turf runners and a few decent dirt horses. Red Giant comes to mind... First Samurai.