ruffian and rachel
 

when your in the momment sometimes you don't realize it. and time makes things more clearer when you have time to reflect.

using ruffian as the bar of greatness for fillys and mares as most do

so how many of you think rachel is equal to ruffian in greatness?


coming from one of the great trainers in haskins article-“I think she’s the best I’ve ever seen,” said 96-year-old racing legend John Nerud. “I don’t compare her to anyone. I’m not afraid to say she’s better than Ruffian, because she is.

your thoughts?

As Haskins says, he does not compare on horse from one generation from another...too hard to do.
Having said that...she is the greatest of our time, and maybe of other times.

She's better than Ruffian. Ruffian got upgraded partially as a result of her death. Not PC to say but just like artists who die, they are remembered differently.

Not necessarily. Ruffian had 5 grade 1 wins and 3 grade 3 wins in her 11 races and i believe she did it all on the front end. Thats quite an accomplishment.

But R.A is certainly the best filly to come around in a while. Sorry Zenyatta, in this case 2nd best is also pretty damn impressive.

When we say the greatest what exactly are we saying? Is she the greatest filly of our time? I think so, my time is the last 24 years..... Im not sure she's even the greatest horse of the last 9 years. Ghostzapper and Point Given were BRILLIANT. Candy Ride was a freak, turf and dirt. Im sure I will take a lot of **** for this. But if Ghostzapper, Point Given, Candy Ride and Rachel faced each other going 1 1/8 on dirt, IMO it is very logical to say she runs last, even if she fires her best shot. Im not knocking her w/ this. If you put her Azeri, Rags in a race... I think Rachel would crush them.

Apparently you didn't read the title or the thread. We are looking at fillies and within that Ruffian and Rachel....Nothing else....Another reason why you got my vote for worst poster.

I read it, but almost every thread is about how great she is. So why does it matter where I post my opinion? Should I create a new thread for it?

ouch!

Is there a website or book you can go to that supplies historical lifetime PPs? For instance, if I wanted to compare, say, Go For Wand and Ruffian's lifetime past performance records, where could I find them?

It would make these comparison threads a lot easier discuss (at least on my end).

P.S. I know GFW has nothing to do with this thread, but Rachel Alexandra is still active and it's fairly easy to get ahold of her PPs. I thought she would make a poor example.

a great book to get is called Champions by the DRF. it does have the PP's and it lists all the great horses from1893-2004....and is updated every few years. currently at about 450 pages

here it is


http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/193...0R3KPJGA6D69CB

the one I bought 2-3 years ago has the pp's.

Champions has lifetime PPs of around 500 horses: all the Eclipse Award winners, through the time of release; all of the champions elected through the old DRF poll (1936-1970); an assortment of horses that pre-date the DRF poll, and a handful of additional horses.

For me this Sums it all up

Lucien Laurin, Secretariat's trainer, said this quote to the press "As God as my witness, she (Ruffian) may even be better than Secretariat."

So, I've got to buy a $50 book to look at the lifetime statistics of a small fraction of the all-time greats of the sport? Are you kidding me?

I can get Hank Aaron's, Bobby Hull's, Jim Brown's and Tiny Archibald's career stats with a few strokes on the keyboard.

Website idea!

The PPs of every horse who has started in this country since DRF has kept statistics should be readily available at a reasonable cost. Some magazines sell portable hard drives that contain all their past issues. DRF should sell portable hard drives that have the scanned pages of every edition of the Form issued in a given year.

For a sport that cares so much about its history, there are few attempts to make this history available to fans or interested parties. How sad that if I want to see the video of a historical race, I have to hope someone has posted it on YouTube.

1. If all you want are basic racing records, it appears you can get that for free at BRIS these days. It'll show year-by-year stats back to the 1920s and stakes info for a bit further back.
2. Reconstructing actual past performances - considering that even the major data purveyors of the sport do not seem to have the material required to do that in electronic form prior to the 1970s - is a major undertaking and involves copyright issues.

This is a tough call. All but one of Ruffian's starts were at the NYRA tracks. The RA roadshow has now hit eight tracks in six states. Ruffian only raced four times at a mile or more, but won at 12 furlongs. RA has made 10 starts at a mile or more, winning 9 of those races.

RA has defeated males three times. But Ruffian was undefeated against her own sex. Ruffian was a precocious speed freak who may have been defeated as the rest of her generation caught up to her. RA is more of a classic horse who has gotten better with time and longer distances.

I'd give the nod to RA in a close finish.

Ruffian was obviously much better as a 2-year-old and much better as a sprinter.

Stuff like this didn't happen to her...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9jD4...eature=channel


Rachel Alexandra is - at the least - far more accomplished as both a 3-year-old and a router.


Without a doubt, Jess Jackson's willingness to run against males has done a lot to enhance her reputation. Some other very good 3yo fillies never got a shot.

The only 3-year-old filly I can think of that ever ran in the Breeders Cup Classic was Jolypha.

She finished 3rd beaten just 2.5 lengths with a 110 Beyer ... and she was shipping from a poor performance in the Arc and was making her first lifetime start on dirt.

* The winner of that race was Horse of the Year A. P. Indy.

* Pleasant Tap was 2nd. He's a mulitple Grade 1 winner of over $2 million who is the only horse in history to finish in the top 3 in the Ky Derby, BC Sprint, and BC Classic.

* Reign Road was 4th. He came into the race off of back to back Grade 2 wins in the Goodwood and Del Mar BC.

* Sultry Song was 5th. He won that years Hollywood Gold Cup, Whitney, and Woodward

* Defensive Play was 6th. He's a Grade 1 winner who was 2nd in the Pacific Classic in his prior dirt start.

* Thunder Rumble was 7th. He won that years Travers and Jim Dandy

* Strike The Gold was 8th. He's a Kentucky Derby winnner with almost $3.5 million in earnings

* Twilight Agenda was 9th. He's a Grade 1 winner who made over $2 million.

* Jolie's Halo was 10th. He's a 3 time Grade 1 winning millionaire

* Marquetry was 11th. He's a 3 time Grade 1 winner who made almost $3 million

* Zoman was 12th. Multiple Grade 1 wining millionaire

* Technology was 13th. Multiple Grade 1 winner .. won the Fla Derby and Haskell.

* Rodrigo De Triano was 14th. He was a champion 3yo in Europe that year and won 5 Group 1's from 6f to 10.5f.


Of course, look what Melair did when they ran her against males as a 3yo. She set mind-boggling fractions, flirted with a world record, and destroyed a very good champion in Snow Chief. Her entire career lasted just 10 weeks though.

TVG just showed a replay of Ruffian's CCA Oaks, which was at 12f, like the Belmont, in which she equalled the stakes record. Ruffian wasn't really bred for 12f; her two noted half-brothers Icecapade and Buckpasser were milers at best and her sire Reviewer was more of the same. But she held a constant two-length lead for the last quarter mile over Equal Change, a filly who was bred for 12f or more (by Arts and Letters-Fairness, by Cavan, from the family of Assault and Man o' War). And Vasquez never resorted to the whip, hand urging all the way.

Back in the day, the connections of Jolypha insisted that she was better than her full brother, Dancing Brave. Too bad she never put it all together after that race.

Another interesting 3yo filly, to say the least, was ski goggle.

She debuted in January of her 3yo year and won by double digits.

She came back in an allowance in less than two weeks and won by double digits again.

In less than two weeks again, she stretched out to 1 1/16 miles and won by 5 (in 141 3/5) over previous years Oak Leaf (g1) runnerup Sophisticated Girl, who ended up being a pretty nice producer.

Laid up for about 2.5 months, she comes back in the Rail Bird and won by 2.5.

About three weeks later, she's sent to Belmont, where she goes off at 5/2 in the grade 1 Acorn. She romped in this race by 7 lengths. In second? Princess Rooney, that years Kentucky Oaks winner (at 1/5) and undefeated at 10 for 10!

Given four months off, she returned to California for one last start. She runs second to the good mare Fabulous Notion and is never heard from again. Her career line was 5 wins and 1 second in 6 starts, all in her 3yo season.

She went on to have a really interesting and unusual career as a broodmare. Her progeny raced in South America and Japan, for the most part, and her best offspring was a filly named Ski Paradise, a grade 1 winner that ran second in the Breeders Cup Mile to Lure.

why even bother? shes real good, of course shes a great racehorse. but these boobs will go on and on about it. its as crazy as the guys that followed micheal jackson. there was even a thread about how "poor rachel" should not get whipped in hard races. its borderline absurdity. what do you people want to hear shes better than secretariat, forego and ruffian even though shes never won at 10 furlongs. hell, shes better than pegasus and he could fly. are you happy now. you call him the worst poster. i'll call this a stupid thread. every great horse has a place in history but some are not happy unless they argue about who was better. everyone jump in the waters great! get on the bandwagon folks. the whole point of this garbage is mute. if you spent as much energy handicapping maybe you could cash on something thats higher than 3-5!

feel better now?

you're forgetting that people do this with all types of sports-who was better, joe montana or tom brady? were the patriots better than the '72 dolphins? sampras or federer, navratilova or graf?

Johnny Pinhead. What's the Michael Jackson reference all about, anyway? Everybody who knows anything about music is in agreement: Prince eats Jacko up for breakfast!

Believe it.

moot

the whole thing is stupid, what are you going to do resurect ruffian and race her? the same with the football teams or any other sport. different era , different tactics, different oppenents. blah, blah' blah.....it proves nothing. rachels the best theres ever been . are you all happy now !

Give me Go for Wand as the best 3yo filly I've seen followed by Miesque and then Zarkava. Winning Colors is next and then Rachel.

Really? I'm calling b.s. on this one. I think maybe you're just trying to be antagonistic. You're just trying to "go against the grain" and blow our minds with your four top filly picks. Nobody really thinks all four of those fillies were better than RA. Love the hype and the connections or loathe them, her body of work speaks much louder than the others. She hasn't ducked anybody and she doesn't lose. She has dominated her own kind, has soundly beaten the boys her own age, and then graduated from opening up cans of Whupass on colts to opening cans of Whupass on horses. All the way she's done it in dramatic fashion -- whether it be leaving the field 20 lengths behind or gutting it out down the stretch. C'mon. You're a more intelligent guy than that. Please retract your statement.

I don't know man. You can make a pretty solid case for Go For Wand and Miesque. A fairly compelling case for Winning Colors.

You are probably right about KG with Zarkeva.

It's funny to me that this group of 3yo males and older horses can be thoroughly maligned as among the worst in memory but then when she beats them, it's said that she's done something great. Nobody is calling Summer Bird an all-time great for beating the same horses. Is it beating Summer Bird that makes her an all-time great? If she wasn't in that Woodward, nobody would have cared about the race or those horses but now because she beat them, it's special? I don't see it. Just because it's not an American tradition to run a 3yo filly against older males doesn't mean that itsomething extra special. If I've watched Zarkava, Goldikova, Miesque, Ridgewood Pearl and others do it, and beat better horses while doing it, why would I be overwhelmed by Rachel doing it? Zarkava dominated the top grass runners in the world in the top grass race in the world. She dominated Goldikova and you know how good that one is. I'd rate beating Goldikova higher than beating Macho Again. But maybe that's just me.

Not just you ...

The novelty of running out of her sex group has over elevated her ...

She is a terrific horse, but has done nothing to leapfrog her over some on your list, Ruffian, or to be mentioned elsewhere in the same breath as Man O' War ...

So true that this year's 3 year old males were exactly as you described them until Rachel beat them, and the older, pretty similar thoughts there ...

It is ironic, however, that she has been beaten by fillies, though not this year--and the horse that got closest to her until Macho Again, won one race this year, albeit a big one ...

Summer Bird seems to be at best staying--or what is now considered staying,-- and he has the best chance of the 3 year olds to catch her at 10 furlongs if this scenario develops ...

I have immense respect for any horse that actually runs a solid campaign and performs as flawlessly as she has, but to elevate her to Olympia--leapfrogging over the greats of the past--is blatant goo-gooism ...

With all the brouhaha about the " grueling " first quarter she ran in the Woodward, long forgotten is the identical LAST quarter run by another girl ...

Blatherskate ...

I'd rate Zarkava above RA. She beat older males going several distances including 12f in the most coveted race in Europe, the Arc. Miesque was pretty good as well.

Comparing RA to Ruffian is not entirely fair because Ruffian died in early July of her 3yo year. You cannot project what she would have done had she lived and RA does have a full campaign. Of course if you stop the clock at July 6th and compare them it's more fair. If you do so, RA wins for her Preakness win.

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-raci...-rocks-the-spa

an excerpt:



Rachel Alexandra had become the first filly to win the Woodward. The last 3-year-old filly to even run in the race was Summer Guest in 1972. This was the equivalent of a 23-year-old girl beating 30-something males. No 3-year-old filly had ever defeated older males in a two-turn, grade I dirt race. The last to win a major two-turn dirt stakes over her elders was Misty Morn in the 1955 Gallant Fox Handicap.


now, i would not compare her to ruffian at this point...after all, ruffian is ruffian. the main problem with comparing her to ruffian is that people who knew of that horse know what a horse she was-and having another like her somehow would make her less special...there's also the tug because of how ruffian ended up.

as for the other fillies, i don't know that rachel could beat personal ensign, or several of the others top distaffers over the years. but i do know that rachel is a special horse, and is a horse many have waited some time to see come around. i think she's the best in a while, and is worthy of a lot of accolades thrown her way.

as for saying what's she's done isn't special-if it was so easy, you'd think races like hers would happen more often.

it's impossible to say she's better than others from the past-based on what could you make that contention? suffice it to say tho that she's been a very good horse, and has been a welcome change from the news of eight belles and barbaro, and let's people know that horses don't croak just because they run fast or hard.

by steve haskin:


Rachel and Euro fillies: no comparison

There have been published comments recently stating that Rachel Alexandra’s conquests over males is not as big an accomplishment as one might think, because it is done all the time in Europe.

It’s true that fillies face and defeat colts on a much more regular basis in Europe than they do in America. Of course, most top-class fillies are forced to run against colts in Europe, due to the lack of group I championship caliber races in the fall. It should be noted that a typical European filly, especially a 3-year-old, is given two or three races in the spring, then has the entire summer off, and returns for two races in the fall. That was Zarkava’s campaign last year; three races in the spring and two in the fall.

Europeans as a whole (Sea the Stars and the top Ballydoyle runners are an exception) do not run steadily throughout the year and have much easier campaigns than American horses. You’d be hard-pressed to find any European filly that has ever defeated males in May, August, and September, as Rachel Alexandra has done.

Almost all the European filly conquests over males come in the fall. They do not win classics and they rarely win a midsummer stakes against males.

For example, no filly has won the English Derby since 1916. There is no record of a filly winning the 2,000 Guineas in modern times, or the French Derby. Only two fillies have won the Irish Derby in at least the last 60 years. No filly has won the King George VI and Queen Elizabeth Stakes in 29 years, and the last one that did was a 4-year-old. Only two fillies have won the Eclipse Stakes in at least the last 39 years and they were both 4-year-olds. It's been 33 years since a 3-year-old filly has won the Grand Prix de Saint-Cloud. When people say fillies defeat colts in Europe all the time, they are referring to the Prix de l'Arc de Triomphe, and as stated earlier, those fillies normally are fresher horses at that time of the year, and unlike the French colts, are coming off a competitive group I prep in the Prix Vermeille, while many of the French colts are coming of slowly run, paceless races in short fields in either the Prix Foy for older horses or the Prix Niel for 3-year-olds.

In short, even in Europe, it is extremely rare to see a 3-year-old filly win a classic against males, and almost as rare to see them win a grade I midsummer stakes of championship caliber against males, both of which Rachel Alexandra has done.

It is difficult to compare racing in Europe to racing in America, and what happens across the Atlantic should not serve as a gauge in assessing the accomplishments of a horse in the United States. Rachel Alexandra’s feats this year were unprecedented in modern times — even by European standards

I think you have to put her in the conversation with Ruffian, which is saying a whole lot. Clearly, Ruffian was better as a 2yo, breaking track records in her maiden races, then winning by daylight every time out. I would put Rachel's 3yo spring on par with Ruffian, and she took it to a different level in the Haskell and Woodward. I'm just happy to see a filly in this day and age that can even get folks to start talking about "Best Ever". True, these types just don't come along, so enjoy the moment.

I would like to have a chat to Haskin!

It would be pointless. That article shows his bias and provincialism clearly.

People are so caught up that they are forgetting the fact that while Rachel is the first to do this and the first to do that, it's not like she's the one that's been successful after so many others have failed. Look at the Woodward. No 3yo filly had even run in the race in the past 36 years. She's special. There should be no question about that. And she's deservedly put herself into the conversation of best of this or best of that. As more opportunities are given, you'll see these kinds of things start to happen more and more. Take Eight Belles, for example. When she ran second in the Derby, a huge deal was made of it. Then Rags won the Belmont the next year and Rachel wins the Preakness this year. Suddenly, Eight Belles' accomplishment doesn't seem so incredible.

Agree again ...

And to the remark that no three year oild filly defeated older males in a G1 two turn race, I would suggest that Busher be revisted winning both the 10 furlong Arlington Handicap and Washington Park Handicap dusting HOY 4year old Armed at 10 furlongs.... There was NO grading system as such then, but they were certainly the equivalent ... Wake me up when Macho Again is mentioned in the same breath as Armed ...

A G1 championship race is only a championship if the entries say so---ONLY Rachel's did in the Woodward, by a head ...

As far as comparing the seasons that Rachel and Ruffian had, I am more interested in adding in the supernatural speed of Ruffian---usually under a pull to slow down-- which Rachel does not quite have, and the range of distances she won over in her brief time on earth ...

Show me Rachel's time records, show me Rachel going a last eight in 11 plus at 12 furlongs--show me works faster than races and I will listen ...

Rachel and Zenyatta are the best two horses out there at present, but after watching 50 years of racing and being priviledged to see Kelso, Fager, Ruffian , Bid, Cigar and others run into the record books, I can tell great without adding hyperbole ...

Rachel made history with the Woodward, but Jackson got gravy with the opposition this year, and marketed her brilliantly ...

Remember that ...