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-   -   6/27: BEL (P4); PrM (P4); MTH-PHA-WO Stakes (http://www.derbytrail.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30454)

Kasept 06-27-2009 07:17 AM

6/27: BEL (P4); PrM (P4); MTH-PHA-WO Stakes
 
Another fun Friday of action. While there were some solid hits (Churchill R4-7 P4 - $243), a lot of money was left on the table missing the anchor legs of the late Churchill and Prairie Meadows Quads. Including $29 Iowa Derby winner DUKE OF MISCHIEF was a plus when he was left largely ignored and MOONPORT was being heavily overbet. Belmont and Prairie P4's again today and a couple of interesting stakes. Hope you did OK 'late night'...


NOTE: No changes possible today...


BELMONT PARK


PRE-SCRATCHES


7th: NYB-ALW/N1X, 3+, 8.5f-IT (P4, P3, DD, Super)

Most Likely: #2 Piazza Di Spagna 4-1 WON
Next Best: #7 Relatively Ready 5-2 3rd
Best Value: #9 System Restore 30-1 7th
Super Add: #6 Pegasus Tommy D 3-1 4th

OFF THE TURF: 12-8-9-11


8th: ALW/N1X, 3+, 1m-T (P3, DD)

Best Value: #3 Parc des Princes 10-1 3rd
Most Likely: #10 So It Goes 7-2 4th
Next Best: #4 Big Al 8-1 5th
Exotics Use: #9 North Country 12-1 11th

OFF THE TURF: 12-6-2B-14


9th: 53rd Mother Goose (G1), 3yo-F, 9f (DD)

Most Likely: #3 Rachel Alexandra 1-5 WON
Next Best: #5 Flashing 4-1 3rd
Best Value: #2 SCR


10th: NYB-MSW, 3+, 7f-T (Super)

Most Likely: #4 Separatist 2-1 WON
Best Value: #7 Saratoga Steve 5-1 4th
Next Best: #8 Western Connection 8-1 2nd-DQ'd from win
Super Add: #12 Wiseacre 12-1 9th

OFF THE TURF: 15-1A-12-13


<$75 P4 Plays:

$2 Main (Rachel Alexandra single):

7: 2-6-7-9
8: 3-4-10
9: 3
10: 4-7

4x3x1x2 = 24 x $2 = $48


$1 Back-up (Flashing single):

7: 2-6-7-9
8: 3-4-10
9: 5
10: 4-7

4x3x1x2 = $24



MONMOUTH PARK


PRE-SCRATCHES


9th (4:50pm): 33rd Boiling Springs (Gr. III), 3yo-F, 8.5f-T (DD, Super)

Three top choices (3, 5, 7 and all under 7-2) are NO BETTER than the rest.. Demand square prices on whomever you use. Chaotic result will be no surprise here..

Best Value: #8 Blind Date 8-1 7th
Most Likely: #5 Bluegrass Princess 5-2 6th
Next Best: #4 Sandi's Ready 8-1 4th
Super Add: #1 Mary's Follies 6-1 WON



PHILADELPHIA PARK


PRE-SCRATCHES


8th: Donald LeVine Mem. H., 3+, 7f (DD)

Most Likely: #4 Kodiak Kowboy 8-5 WON
Best Value: #7 Cassoulet 12-1 2nd
Next Best: #2 Acting Zippy 5-2 6th
Exotics Use: #3 Whistle Pig 7-2 4th



WOODBINE


PRE-SCRATCHES


7th: 107 King Edward H. (Gr. II), 3+, 9f-T (P4, P3)

#3 Rahy's Attorney (2-1) looms likely, but #1 Sterwins is a vulnerable second choice at 5-2. Using two square prices under top choice..

Most Likely: #3 Rahy's Attorney 2-1 WON
Best Value: #6 Wollemi Pine 12-1 5th
Next Best: #7 Balletti 6-1 3rd



PRAIRIE MEADOWS


PRE-SCRATCHES


7th: Iowa Sprint H., 3+, 6f (.50 P4, P3, Super)

Most Likely: #1 Native Ruler 3-1 4th
Next Best: #3 Silver Edition 7-2 6th
Best Value: #6 Semaphore Man 9-2 3rd


8th: Iowa Distaff, F&M-3+, 8.5f (P3)

Most Likely: #3 Euphony 6-5 WON
Best Value: #2 Day of Victory 5-1 3rd
Next Best: #1 Bear Now 9-5 2nd


9th: Cornhusker H. (Gr. II), 3+, 9f (DD, Super)

Best Value: #1 Stonehouse 8-1 6th
Most Likely: #2 My Pal Charlie 4-1 3rd
Next Best: #8 Jonesboro 7-2 WON
Super Add: #5 Shadowbdancing 5-1 2nd

.10 SUPER SPOT PLAY: 1-2 over 1-2-5-6-8 over 1-2-5-6-8 over All (2x4x3x5 = 120 x .10 = $12.00)


10th: IA-CLM/N2L, 3+, 5.5f (Super)

Most Likely: #5 The Cliff's End 4-1 4th
Best Value: #4 Six Gun Smokin 8-1 7th
Next Best: #3 Friendly Glide 9-2 3rd
Super Add: #6 Broken Connection 12-1 5th


<$50 P4 Play:

7: 1-3
8: ALL
9: 1-2
10: 3-4-5-6-7

2x5x2x5 = 100 x .50 = $50


Good luck!
Steve

2 Dollar Bill 06-27-2009 12:16 PM

The Mother Goose is down to Three runners... Is it toooooo late to get a
DT stables runner in here ? :D

beemerhauler 06-27-2009 12:23 PM

Just saying thanks for all that you do. I don't get to get on the internet often enough, and I know others in my position are asking for 'twitter' help. We all could get cell phone adapters for our computers and access your web site almost at any time, so I say don't concern yourself too much with their requests. You do plenty for us as it is. I hit big on the Churchill Double where the 8 barely pulled out the win and the 4 horse went off at 6-1, m/l 4-1, and I exacta hit the 4/1,2,3,5,6. I then said goodnight. I'll be playing well rested on Sat. and Sun. Thanks, Steve. -Arthur

pointman 06-27-2009 02:08 PM

Belmont 5th

$20W 8
$20DD 8/4,5

Good Luck!

pointman 06-27-2009 03:10 PM

Belmont 7

$20W 7
$20 DD 7/1

Good Luck!

Lava 06-27-2009 04:05 PM

Race 9 $20 DD
3 with 4

fpsoxfan 06-27-2009 05:05 PM

Very shaky DQ in the 10th.

Gander 06-27-2009 05:06 PM

I agree. I dont think that horse did enough to come down but I had a funny feeling he would given the fact the horse who was victimized was even money and the end of a lot of short wagers (double, pick 3 and 4, pick 6).

pmacdaddy 06-27-2009 05:12 PM

That DQ cost me a lot of freakin money on the Double. :mad:

pointman 06-27-2009 05:15 PM

That DQ was f*cking outrageous IMO. I will preface this by saying I have a bias here as the DQ cost me about $1K, but how could they have taken that horse down?

First of all, if you DQ the 8, you have to DQ the 4 who DID THE EXACT SAME THING to the 10 (I think 10 who I believe checked when the 4 came in on him) on the rail to even try to get by the 8 on the rail when the 8 was there first. The 8 was simply better!

That is two very questionable DQ's that have cost me dearly in less than 24 hours! (Hollywood 4th last night).

It is hard enough to pick winners, even harder in the 7 to 9-1 range, without having Bull$*it DQ's!! :mad:

Gander 06-27-2009 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pointman
That DQ was f*cking outrageous IMO. I will preface this by saying I have a bias here as the DQ cost me about $1K, but how could they have taken that horse down?

First of all, if you DQ the 8, you have to DQ the 4 who DID THE EXACT SAME THING to the 10 (I think 10 who I believe checked when the 4 came in on him) on the rail to even try to get by the 8 up it when the 8 was there first. The 8 was simply better!

That is two very questionable DQ's that have cost me dearly in less than 24 hours! (Hollywood 4th last night).

It is hard enough to pick winners, even harder in the 7 to 9-1 range, without having Bull$*it DQ's!! :mad:

That sucks, sorry that cost you. I know the 8 was one of the more popular alternatives to the 4 who proved again today what a hanger he is, so there are probably quite a few people who are mad and feel like they were robbed. I would be steamed if that cost me 1K. You certainly get many chances in this game to beat bad favorites, but to actually find the right horse is very tough.

golfer 06-27-2009 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pointman
That DQ was f*cking outrageous IMO. I will preface this by saying I have a bias here as the DQ cost me about $1K, but how could they have taken that horse down?

First of all, if you DQ the 8, you have to DQ the 4 who DID THE EXACT SAME THING to the 10 (I think 10 who I believe checked when the 4 came in on him) on the rail to even try to get by the 8 on the rail when the 8 was there first. The 8 was simply better!

That is two very questionable DQ's that have cost me dearly in less than 24 hours! (Hollywood 4th last night).

It is hard enough to pick winners, even harder in the 7 to 9-1 range, without having Bull$*it DQ's!! :mad:

I agree with every word. I thought the decision SUCKED. It seemed to me the 8 had as much right to the rail as the 4 did. And he didn't come over 1.5 paths as Tom Durkin was told to say. It was much less than that.

blackthroatedwind 06-27-2009 06:47 PM

This is the third time in eight racing days I have been disqualified. Clearly I see races differently than those that make the decisions. Then again, I see a lot of things differently than many people.

pointman 06-27-2009 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind
This is the third time in eight racing days I have been disqualified. Clearly I see races differently than those that make the decisions. Then again, I see a lot of things differently than many people.

First of all, nice call with the 8. I don't think that you saw this one any different than anyone other than the stewards. I know you don't like to knock people you work with, but that was theft, plain and simple. I feel your pain after the bull$*t DQ I took at Hollywood last night as well.

Someone has to explain to me why what the 4 did to the 10 was ok but the 8 taking a lane that I believe he had every right to was not. I am wondering if I can put my hands down yet.

the_fat_man 06-27-2009 07:03 PM

I think it's time some of the stewards sat down with people that watch a lot of races, trip handicappers, and actually GET A ****IN CLUE about races. Given today's decision, it's clear the NYRA stewards are either CROOKED or RETARDED.

NYRA is doing some incredibly BUSH things with the way they've handled, or should I write, basically destroyed, BEL turf racing but this decision today is just bound to drive even more people away.

Now, let me track to figure out which turf races will be taken off the turf tomorrow. MOTHER **** NYRA.

blackthroatedwind 06-27-2009 07:06 PM

You do realize we have left a lot of turf races ON that most, if not all, tracks, would not have?

Taking races off the turf costs us a fortune and does a disservice to everyone from the horsemen, the owners, and the customers. We have struggled to do the best we possibly can under unbelievably difficult circumstances.

the_fat_man 06-27-2009 07:16 PM

This is what I realize and hopefully someone else will see it the same way.

I've been playing the horses and, thus, BEL/AQU/SAR, since the early '70's. I've never seen it this bad at BEL. Not only in terms of all the races coming off but in the quality of the races. Do you realize that on any given day CD, MTH, HOL, AP, WO, etc. have better quality turf races than NYRA? NYRA's basically recycling the same old tired horses -- claimers and NY BREDS.

Moreover, NYRA has the luxury of TWO, count them, TWO turf courses to work with. Is ruining the spring/summer BEL turf meet worth SAVING BOTH COURSES? Can't we come up with something a bit more creative?

Why is it that when I'm over at Prospect Park the grass there is never as bad as I'm led to believe the BEL courses are when it rains? Better drainage at the park?

I've seen tracks beat up their courses to shreds just to put on some turf races. There's a 6 week break when they're up at SAR; you can grow a lot of grass in 6 weeks.

Just run the ****in races. Get creative with the rails. Give people who handicap the night before a break. And let the 6 weeks fix whatever damage was done.

And this is just the view of someone who only plays BEL peripherally. I can only imagine what the horsemen must be thinking: they get a ton of hassling and money is taken out of their pockets on top of that.

blackthroatedwind 06-27-2009 07:49 PM

You don't get it and you refuse to get it.

parsixfarms 06-27-2009 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_fat_man
I've been playing the horses and, thus, BEL/AQU/SAR, since the early '70's. I've never seen it this bad at BEL. Not only in terms of all the races coming off but in the quality of the races. Do you realize that on any given day CD, MTH, HOL, AP, WO, etc. have better quality turf races than NYRA? NYRA's basically recycling the same old tired horses -- claimers and NY BREDS.

And this is just the view of someone who only plays BEL peripherally. I can only imagine what the horsemen must be thinking: they get a ton of hassling and money is taken out of their pockets on top of that.


Living up in Saratoga (where it's also been raining on and off for the better part of June), I can't comment on the weather from first hand experience, but from what I hear from our trainers, it just seems that the weather downstate has not been conducive to drying the turf courses. I'm sure a few sunny, 90 degree days will do that, if they ever come. Until it happens, we all have to do the best we can, and I speak as someone trying to get a horse on the turf (but I'm not looking to run him over a boggy course for his first start on turf). Actually, as BTW said above, there have been a few times where we were looking for a race to come off the turf, and it was surprisingly kept on given the relative softness of the course.

As for the quality of racing at this spring's Belmont meet, I think everyone realizes that it is less than what it was a few years ago, but to simply blame NYRA for it is silly. The deterioration of the racing product in NY is a symptom of a number of other factors (including state government's inability to get a slot operation up and running, the competition for horses from other states, and the proliferation of large stables that have taken many of their "B" team horses to venues like Monmouth, Delaware and the like [where they are allowance types instead of claimers in NY]). If you follow the condition book, the racing office is writing the same types of allowance races that they have for years; they simply don't fill, and that's a function of some of the factors discussed above. The types of races that you bemoan are typically "extras" when the book races don't go.

That's not to say that there aren't some "new" programs that the racing office has adopted that have not worked out. For example, the overnight stakes that they are constantly carding seem to be cannibalizing the allowance races. Look at the overnight stakes race that served as Friday's feature. It was a glorified allowance race, as most of those fillies were eligible for NW1X and NW2X allowance conditions. Now, they aren't available for the allowance races that the racing office is trying to fill, which becomes a vicious cycle. And it is even worse, as occurred on several occasions at Saratoga last year, when they ran overnight stakes with almost identical conditions to a graded stakes virtually on top of the graded race (the Jim Dandy, Test, and Lake Placid are three that come to mind immediately), taking horses from those races.

Another misstep, IMO, has been the change to drawing cards three racing days out. Sure, handicappers can get the PPs in their hands early, but when some cards are drawn five days out (for example, today they drew Thursday's card), they are even more at the mercy of the weather than ever. In the past, when cards were drawn 48 hours in advance, if the weather looked particularly ominous, they'd adjust the card (turning turf races to dirt races in advance), so that it would not be decimated with scratches. The current system, given the unpredictability of long-range weather forecasts, doesn't lend itself the sort of improvisation described above, and when bad weather strikes (as we have seen this month), the result is somewhat predictable.

the_fat_man 06-27-2009 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by parsixfarms
Living up in Saratoga (where it's also been raining on and off for the better part of June), I can't comment on the weather from first hand experience, but from what I hear from our trainers, it just seems that the weather downstate has not been conducive to drying the turf courses. I'm sure a few sunny, 90 degree days will do that, if they ever come. Until it happens, we all have to do the best we can, and I speak as someone trying to get a horse on the turf (but I'm not looking to run him over a boggy course for his first start on turf). Actually, as BTW said above, there have been a few times where we were looking for a race to come off the turf, and it was surprisingly kept on given the relative softness of the course.

Let me try to make this as simple as possible. I've been to my local park when the grass there has been flooded by too much rain. This is something that's evident. Not only is the grass wet but you can't even walk on it without your feet sinking into the mud. Walk through one of these areas and you need a month to clean off the mud from your sneakers.

I've been to the Prospect Park and some smaller parks in my area during this period. I've run over the grass; I've cycled over the grass. NO PROBLEMA. In fact, while there have certainly been a good number of day where portions of the paved areas in Prospect Park have been so wet you couldn't cycle over them, there's never been a day when I couldn't walk and run freely over the grass. Why are the BEL turf courses so saturated with water? Why won't they absorb and dry like normal grass does? Why is the BEL turf SOFT when MTH is FIRM? Something indigenous to the Elmont region?:rolleyes:

This is all BS. It's ****in grass, they're horses and they've been running over wet grass and dirt throughout their history. NYRA just needs to let them run on it and stop making an issue out of the trivial.

At this rate anyone with turf horses in NY will just start shipping to MTH, DEL, PHA, and elsewhere, like Henning, McLaughlin, Tagg, Pletcher, Contessa, and others are already doing. Then it becomes an issue of why they really need to be in NY.

blackthroatedwind 06-27-2009 08:28 PM

Comparing the grass courses to Prospect Park is a big smile. Thanks, it's been a long day, I needed the laugh.

You can't be this crazy......can you?

the_fat_man 06-27-2009 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind
Comparing the grass courses to Prospect Park is a big smile. Thanks, it's been a long day, I needed the laugh.

You can't be this crazy......can you?


Really? Why does the grass at BEL take so much longer to dry than just about anywhere else in the world? It's not tropical there. Elmont isn't in the Amazon. The area is not a swamp.

But that's what NYRA would have us believe and I guess, you think, that everyone needs to just buy that BS.

pmacdaddy 06-27-2009 08:36 PM

The rain storm before they cancelled yesterday was intense. Reminded me of Ghostbusters. Kids were wading in puddles on the way out.

That isolated storm had to have set things back dramatically.

parsixfarms 06-27-2009 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_fat_man
Why are the BEL turf courses so saturated with water? Why won't they absorb and dry like normal grass does? Why is the BEL turf SOFT when MTH is FIRM? Something indigenous to the Elmont region?:rolleyes:

This is all BS. It's ****in grass, they're horses and they've been running over wet grass and dirt throughout their history. NYRA just needs to let them run on it and stop making an issue out of the trivial.

I'm not an agronomist and I haven't walked the Belmont turf courses. I don't believe it's any secret think that the turf courses at Belmont and Saratoga probably don't drain as well as NYRA would like and would be priorities for NYRA if it had funds for significant capital improvements for their tracks. Given its past financial difficulties, the problems with the turf courses can probably best be chalked up to the problems associated with deferred maintenance.

As for the issue as to why they aren't using the courses, it's in NYRA's financial interest to use the courses as much as possible when safe. Just compare the pick-4 handle this week ($494K) to last week's ($250K), when the races came off and NYRA had to pay over $100K on the pic-4 guarantee. I don't understand why you can't seem to grasp that these are long meets and constant use of the courses puts a strain on them. A few years ago at Saratoga (2006), they beat the sh** out of the course, and by the end of the meet, there were so many holes on the courses that they weren't safe (and they had to cancel turf races even though the weather was dry). If these were short meets or they had a single course with multiple paths, like Gulfstream or Colonial, they might not have to take as many races off the turf. But they don't, and we have to accept it, for now.

chucklestheclown 06-28-2009 12:46 AM

Blackthroatedwind, you need to fix this ASAP. It is a disgrace.

Gander 06-28-2009 07:12 AM

They moved Separatist up because he tried moving through an opening that wasnt there. Western Connection did come slightly over but was clearly in front of Separatist when he did and that happens all the time in horse racing, especially in turf racing. Look at the move Dame Ellen was making on Friday when she got the path she was going to take blocked. Would that have been grounds for a DQ had the horse that been in her way (I think it was La Rocca) finished in front of her? If they are going to move up every horse who tries to go through an opening thats not there and DQ a horse that moves slightly over, you better not even think of celebrating a win until the race becomes official.

freddymo 06-28-2009 09:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_fat_man
Really? Why does the grass at BEL take so much longer to dry than just about anywhere else in the world? It's not tropical there. Elmont isn't in the Amazon. The area is not a swamp.

But that's what NYRA would have us believe and I guess, you think, that everyone needs to just buy that BS.


If you think NYRA likes taking off your crazy its killing them. NYRA is now being run by people who know they have to make money, you think they want 40% of the turf races off? Anyway I agree that they should TRY to be a bit less careful and run at least one on each course.I guess we just dont comprehend the situation well enough.. It really is in everyones best interest to leave them on so when they take off I guess it reallly is necessary???

pointman 06-28-2009 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind
This is the third time in eight racing days I have been disqualified. Clearly I see races differently than those that make the decisions. Then again, I see a lot of things differently than many people.

You got one back!

chucklestheclown 07-01-2009 01:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gander
you better not even think of celebrating a win until the race becomes official.

Who does that?


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