Direct evidence of Iranian involvement???
 

According to news reports, Israeli troops killed several elite Iranian "special forces types" today fighting with the terrorists...if true, that would seem to justify a declaration of war by Israel against Iran...thoughts??

Iran has already stated Israel should not exist. We know Iran and Syria have supplied weapons to terrorists groups and have trained them. After the world gets through with this mess in Lebanon... If we get things somehow straightened out in Iraq and Afghanistan, their time will come. It will be sanctions first of course. China and Russia will again abstain from voting on the resolutions. The Arab countries know Iran is out to make trouble which is helpful. Another hope is the fact that Iran has a significant percentage of their population that is totally against their current religious regime (totally unlike Lebanon where terrorists were welcomed). I think diplomacy will work much better in the Iranian situation, than it would have with Afghanistan or Iraq. Iran was on the verge of a modern day government. The momentum is still their, especially when all the other messes end.

Israel will be kindly asked to stay out of it, just like Israel did when Iraq launched Scuds (yes, they shot him all the way from LA) during the first gulf war with no provocation by Israel whatsoever (how soon people forget this). I would like to see the US stay out of a mess if missles were lauched against our country proper.

So the short. Israel will use this as evidence and stay away from Iran unless attacked directly from the country proper. Or they might try and take out the nuclear facilities at a later date, after the Lebanon mess is cleared. This one can wait I think.

There needs to be more proof required rather than Israel's say-so.
This could become much more dangerous in a very short while if the claim is proven to be true.

We know Iran and Syria have supplied weapons to terrorists groups and have trained them. This is clear. Iran having "advisors" in Lebanon is not that big an infraction compared to what is already known imo.

Both countries, Syria and Iran will come out losers after this is over. Syria probably less so if they comply. Iran may avoid all problems if the current regime shifts and they stop their enrichment program. Their will be more pressure on both these countries because of Lebanon, lots more.

Pgardn,
Let me first say that I respect your opinions.
Both Iran and Syria will respond to your first sentence by stating that the US has supplied and trained the Israel Defense Force. This is also true.
I see no indication that Iran will halt their nuclear enrichment program. They might view this situation as,,,Israel has nuclear weapons, so we need to as well...(I'm not stating this as fact, just trying to "read" the mindset.)

As far as pressure on Syria and Iran (and I'm no fan of either), in this game of "brinkmanship", Israel and the US are perceived as being the ones that stand against the rest of the world. Seems to me that the pressure is on both adversaries. For now, Lebanon is the "side show" unfortunately. Israel's refusal to halt the aggression (whether justified or not) continues to compromise the US's credibility. We have few enough allies at this point.

As I said in my previous post, this situation holds the potential to to become much more dangerous in a very short time. I truely hope that doesn't happen, but it looks like events are escalating faster than "cool heads" can prevent.

Sounds like another effort by Israel to get the US to fight a war for them. No thanks. Fight your own wars. Iran has done nothing to the US.

The huge difference is the IDF and Israel are not terrorist organizations. Israel has no reason to stop their current advance as long as their cities in the North are shelled at will. We all need to be very clear that the Israeli incursion should not be equated with Hezbollah shelling random cities in Israel. People get this confused. There is ABSOLUTELY NO COMPARISON imo. We all know how this started and we all know who the terrortists are. Good and Evil often have very blurry gray areas. THis current situation holds very little gray areas in my view, very little.
We can debate how all the horrible poverty that many of these current terrorists grew up in may have made them monsters, etc... I abhor the situations cause the desperation and lack of hope that leads to the acts. But right now, the monsters must be dealt with as monsters. Here and now. If the region ever prospers economically, there will be hope that this ends.
This is where I differ greatly with "liberals".
As an example. ONe can talk endlessly about why a kid totally disrupts a school environment, how his parents beat him, etc... but you still have to remove the kid from the classes that he disrupts... its not fair to the other students. He cannot be allowed to "bring the house down"
You have to deal with the house burning right in front of your face. Then deal with the faulty wiring systems that might make other houses burn in the same way. TAke care of immediate problems... cant just pontificate on the root causes.

And I am sad to say that it will take a giant wack of radiation to rid this region of the cancer that has been allowed to fester. God Lord, a group run by a madman is getting tens of thousands of missles and shelling innocent people. He has been building this arsenal for a long time. The tendrils of this evil run deep into the heart of Lebanon. Time for the removal. Its gonna get very ugly.
I think back on WWI and how it was never really resolved. It led right into WWII. WWII ended in a horrible mannner. But at least two countries, Germany and Japan have reaped the benifits of riding themselves of totalitarian regimes and the deaths they caused. It basically took total anhilation to lead to peace.

I dont think terrorism is some invention in the mind of George Bush. He may have dealt with it very poorly in some aspects. But it is alive and really is a world-wide challenge to be dealt with.

Pgardn,
I forget the astronaut's name, but I remember some of his words when he looked at the earth from the surface of the moon. He said, "I'd like to take some of the politicians from down there, grab them by the neck, and say to the sonofabitches...NOW LOOK AT THAT!"

In milder words...

"We are what we think. All that we are arises with our thoughts.
With our thoughts we make the world." -Buddha

Radiation will solve nothing.

Leave the US out of Israels problems. The US is far away from the Middle East and we are safe here as long as our CIA/NSA does their job. I sure as hell know our CIA wouldn't have allowed a bunch of terrorists to get tens of thousands of missiles on a bordering country. This is why I laugh so hard when people say the Mosaad is even comparable to our intelligence organizations. Israel needs to deal with their terrorist problems before they start, not after.

Well,I am often (along with DTS,AND GENUINE RISK)called Liberal on this site.I have some views that are in common with Liberals (on some issues.)This is certainly not one of them.Many Liberals simply read the words of other Liberals in order to find a position they think is the one to take. I think you know that myself and PGARDN don't agree on much,but on this subject we agree.According to most people who identify themselves as Liberals,Islam is no more violent or dangerous to nonbelievers than any other religion.That is as blind (to the facts before you) as it gets.I don't know what it will take before "those other than Israel and the U.S" figure out that this religion is a huge danger to those that don't believe in it. They will not be satisfied until every Jew is thrown out of the area now known as Israel. They don't want some of the land.They want every Jew in Israel killed,kicked out,beheaded,or liquefied.This belief that they want something less,and can be made peace with,is simply foolish.

DTS.
I wish it were not true but it is. The absolute annhilation of Germany via the horrible firebombing of many of its cities by the British and US, and the wipeout invasion of Germany from the West and East (the Russians) solved a whole lot.

Japan. It took two, not one two, atomic bombs. It was horrible, it brought them to their knees. And... it solved a whole lot.

I would like to believe these cases are very diff. than what Israel faces now. Peace was made with Egypt. I dont believe peace can be made with a Lebanon that is controlled by Hezbollah. Hezbollah must be annhilated as an ARMED force. As long as they have missles nothing will be solved.

Scuds I really do not believe all Muslims want to kill everyone in Israel. I believe the key is not only peace, but prosperity. I will again use Northern Ireland as an example. Here is another case of a long history of war. Now the skirmishes are few and far between. Why? I believe its because people are at work feeding their families and taking vacations. They now have a life to live.
Commerce did this. Some big computer companies came in and put people to work. More commerce followed.

And I am referred to as a liberal by my conservative friends, many of who are in business. I am referred to as conservative by many in my profession.

You are clueless. Radiation would kill tons of innocent people, exactly what the terrorists want. Please explain to us who would be using the radiation. The US or Israel, or the US for Israel. LOL.

I am going to pretend you are kidding. I used radiation as an ANALOGY with cancer in an earlier post. Doctors use radiation to treat some forms of cancer.
Radiation... holy mother of God I hope you are kidding.

Oh I forgot. You are the one who lies... I am going to meet Oracle at Toga and you never show. Is it possible to throw pathological liars off the board?

you are wasting your time. trust me.

Well, I posted this one and took a seat, the debate has gone as all on the subject have...liberal vs conservative mindsets. I agree with Pgardn and, to an extent, Scuds (don't buy that all want destruction of Israel). Folks, I hate war...fought in one and didn't care for it at all! I marched with Dr King, was a SDS member, remain a PETA member...hardly conservative credentials; on the other hand, I can't stand liberals..."we stand for equality" until equality involves the house next door. Common sense has to trump ideology here...who are the terrorists? Pretty simple answer as pgardn has stated over and over! Israel will defend itself and we will help, this isolationist garbage has never worked, why would it now when the oceans are so easily traversed and a free nation can never totally control it's borders?? Wake up...the missiles falling on Northern Israel WILL someday fall on NYC or LA if we don't stop this cancer now! These monsters can't be reasoned with, they can't be trusted, they won't adhere to some piece of paper whether written by the UN or anyone else...unless someone here can get Allah to sign a peace accord, there is only one end game...either we all die horribly or they do! Your choice...mine is made, seek them out and destroy them! Afterwards, if it makes you feel better, we can all sit around wringing our hands and talking about how immoral we are!

"Scuds I really do not believe all Muslims want to kill everyone in Israel."-Pgrdn


The Members of Hezbollah.The Leadership of Iran,and Syria etc...Do want to push them into the Sea.I don't know if all Moslems want every Jew in Israel dead.I do know that most Moslems are against Israel bringing Hezbollah to justice for their terrorism.See,people just don't get the fact that Moslems don't see NON-MOSLEMS as equals to their fellow MOSLEMS.No matter what vile acts their fellow Moslem Hezbollah members commit,most Moslems can't stomach them being killed by Jews.See,Jews are nonbelievers.They are considered by Moslems to be far beneath fellow Moslems.How dare the Jews(the nonbelievers) kill Moslem believers.I don't think people around the world quite see that Moslems divide everybody up into believers,and nonbelievers.In Iraq they can't stand the Christians or whatever other nonbelievers to be there(no matter that they came to get rid of a monster.)They want the nonbelievers out now.They don't want the nonbeliever Jews living next to them in Israel.They want them out now.

If the UN wasn't so anti-semitic they might be able to do something but the UN is a joke.

Huh?? What?? They took over our Embassy in Tehran....Wars have been started for less provocation. Hezbollah blew up the marines barracks in Beirut with Iranian backing and blessing.
Is that enough for you? If not,what will it take?

So, just to get this straight, you are using as provocation for war events that took place over 20 years ago? LOL.

The brilliance of some on this board proceeds to a new level.

Dalakhani,some of us do care,and remember that Hezbollah had the Marine barracks blown up(basically imploded on these marines while sleeping.)I don't remember the exact # of marines killed(I should....200-300 I believe.)Yes,I remember it,and this scum has never been brought to justice for it.May not bother you that they got away with it,but hopefully most aren't like you.

This article was written by Lebanon's Prime Minister:

http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0810-24.htm

Hey Fouad,come back when you have decided you will no longer allow the terrorist party Hezbollah to be represented in your Government,and openly allowed to live and plan terrorist attacks from your country.Until you do it,you're not an innocent country.You're a country that is allowing terror to prosper.Your country is a launching pad for terrorist attacks.So,it is attacked by those who are trying to kill the very terrorists that you seem to not mind living with.Now you might care.Blame your own damn self for allowing this scum to live in your country.If you wanted them out,you would have done it.You sure have no excuse for allowing a terrorist group to be represented in the GOVERNMENT.You can try to turn it around all you want,but you tolerated terrorism to be exported from your country.This is why your country is crippled.Learn from it.Don't support terrorists,and then btch about it when those terrorists are hunted down.You wouldn't get rid of this scum.You should have.Your country would still be working with it's infrastructure intact if you had opposed terrorism.

PLease note that Fouad asks for help to stop Israel from hunting down terrorists in his country,but does not ask for help in keeping the Hezbollah group from firing rockets from his country into civilian areas of Israel.Hezbollah has been doing stuff like this from within his country for a long time.Where was the request from him to the rest of the World to help him stop these terrorists from doing this from within his country? Odd to me that he is o.k. with damage going from his country into another one.Different story now that damage comes the other way.This is why you don't allow terrorists to be in your country.Always, with terrorists, innocent people get hurt.Now he is outraged that innocent people get hurt? He has let the terrorists abound in his country how long?You might want to get rid of your country's terrorists(instead of complaining at the ways others do it.)Should have done what Israel is having to come do.You don't like the way they go about removing terrorists? Remove them your own damn self.

"Lebanon must be allowed to reclaim its position in this troubled region as a beacon of freedom and democracy where justice and the rule of law prevail, and as a refuge for the oppressed where moderation, tolerance and enlightenment triumph."

a beacon of FREEDOM? where justice and rule of law prevail?!

i wonder if the prime minister was able to keep a straight face when he wrote that?? wow.

Yeah- lets go on a worldwide killing spree against every man, group or country that has ever defied the US. Why dont we start with...with...why dont we start with Mother England? Didnt they kill a bunch of "americans" a little while back? Those scum should be brought to justice!

How about the viet Cong? How many marine barracks were blown up there? That scum definitely should be brought to justice! Those terrorists!

Cuba? We still owe Cuba for the bay of pigs! Commie bastards! Bring them to justice as well.

I was just thinking...now that we are on the subject, dont we owe Russia pretty good? How about the KAL flight from 1983? Bring them to justice!

Wait, wait, wait...didnt the Germans sink the Lusitania? **** em...get those kraut eating sons of bitches as well! Justice!!!!!

Again,we have a huge difference here.You have tried to put a terrorist group on the same level as a Government's uniformed armed forces (that fight other armed forces.)Hezbollah commits terrorist acts.Militaries will hopefully fight other military forces(instead blowing up buses of civilians,and blowing up the barracks of peace- keeping forces.)

"Yeah- lets go on a worldwide killing spree against every man, group or country that has ever defied the US."



No,lets go bring terrorists to justice before they repeatedly blow up buses,skyscrapers full of civilians,and airliners full of common travelers.

And a government's uniformed armed forces dont blow up buses of civilians and commit "acts of terror"? Are you naive or just daft?

Why does a uniform and a flag give a group any more of a right to commit illegal acts against humanity?

Has the US knowingly committed illegal acts of war against innocent civillians on multiple occasions?

Hasnt the Israeli army done the same thing?

This myopic view of the world is what has exacerbated this forever tense situation.

Oh for God's sake cmon. You are making horrible comparisons.
How would you even know if the US has committed illegal acts of war?

Tell you what. As far as we all REALLY know, Hezbollah has committed NO acts of terror. Why dont you try and go write history on them and do some reporting from inside the group. When you and others in this free and open moral society report back on atrocities... I somehow doubt you will be reporting back. Maybe you can act as liason for leaflet writing when they fire their rockets.

Do you really think Israel has ordered its military to purposely TARGET INNOCENT men, women and children? Where is your evidence, and what purpose would this serve? The Israeli Press as well as any Western News organizations would absolutely love to get a hold of this evidence. Im sure the Hezbollah Press would ...

Those are terrible comparisons. I think we made up with England a long time ago. I think we settled our problems with Germany a long time ago. In addition, Germany has totally changed its ways. They are no longer trying to take over the world.

Hezbollah has not changed its ways. They are pulling the same crap now that they were 20 years ago. There would be no reason for us to forgive Hezbollah. They have not changed their ways.

Well, some people would say the Qana bombing was fairly much an attack on civilians. Also the recent bombing and obliteration of a dairy farm (a dairy farm??) is evidence Israel is trying to bring economic poverty to Lebanon. There are also dozens of incidents of the Israelis targeting civilian infrastructure sites in Gaza, including the decimation of a power station supplying about 2/3 of all electrical power to Gaza.

There have been dozens of UN Sec Council resolutions condemning Israel's military actions against civilians, mostly in Gaza. They always recieve a 13-1 vote (The U.S. is the 1) against Israel.


Many folks believe "Collective Punishment" is a standard part of Israeli military strategy. Who's to say they are right or wrong?

So the Israelis planned an attack on Qana in order to kill innocent women and children? The collective punishment is a possible motive, but it is really hard to defeat an enemy who uses an innocent population as shields. We have video of rockets being fired from behind apartment complexes. Why would a group fire rockets from behind an area where innocent civilians are living?

UN security council res. mean very little apparently. They called for the Lebanese government to disarm Hezbollah a long time ago. And when Syria was appointed head of Human Rights violations... The UN is necessary, but hardly fair or uncorruptable. Hell they had UN soldiers in Africa rape women. And Kofi has a bit of an accounting problem.

[quote=pgardn]Oh for God's sake cmon. You are making horrible comparisons.
How would you even know if the US has committed illegal acts of war?

Abu Girab comes to mind...

Scuds, I'll be sure to ask my two Moslem stepbrothers if they think Israel should be destroyed, since you think all Moslems support Hezbollah. Seeing as how they both voted for Bush, would you care to wager on their response?

Scuds, you've got to learn the difference between "Islam" and "radical Islam." Islam has plenty of issues it should deal with, it's treatment of women not least among them, but to think every Moslem is seeking the destruction of Israel is silly and misinformed.

I don't disagree with you one bit about the danger of radical Islam. Not one bit.

Your analysis of the Northern Ireland situation is correct ... but I'd suggest different terminology.

"Commerce" is a nice word .. but "free market capitalism" is more explanatory and accurate. Ireland (North & South) ... like all socialist countries ... was an economic basket case ... until they shed the socialism and adopted low-tax, free-trade, free-market policies ... and looky-here ... all the problems were solved.

The same thing would happen for the Palestinians and other Arab basket cases ... if they would emulate the capitalist systems of the United States and Israel ... instead of resenting them.

True ... but ...

... when are the "good" Islamists going to loudly and frequently condemn all the terrorist acts by the "bad" Islamists?

We're still waiting for that to happen ... and the silence is deafening.

[quote=GenuineRisk]Absolutley horrible what some US soldiers have done in Iraq. They hopefully, if guilty, will pay a heavy price. They are as evil as any people who prey on the innocent while in a position of power.
And how did we find out about these atrocities???
ANd why are these "soldiers" being brought to justice???

Because we are a free open society with a moral and fair rule of law. These homegrown monsters will also meet the punishment they deserve. Can the same be said for Hezbollah?, since apparently we are making comparisons between what individuals in a free society have done, with a group that has made it their mandate to kill all Jews. THis comparison is absolutely absurd.

THis is exactly what I am scared to death of. Honestly it is Nazi like. Arab leaders sit back and listen to the Iranian President say Israel needs to be destroyed and NOT ONE OFFICIAL FROM ANY OF THESE COUNTRIES DENOUNCED THIS.... NOT ONE.

[quote=pgardn]I think we found out about Abu Girab because one soldier had the courage to face down his own military and let out the truth. He's received death threats because of it, too. These are individuals in a free society making these threats, by the way. And how many of the abusers have received any sort of sentence? Just two, correct? (Let me know if I'm wrong on this; I'd be really happy to be wrong). And the men in charge of the military go free or get medals from the President.

(Not that I think we're all that free anymore, anyway...)

Mind you, I'm not condoning Hezbollah. I was just responding to a post that asked how we'd even know whether America was committing any illegal acts of war.

And yes, moderate Moslems should be condemning the behavior of the radical ones. No question.

You folks who state that no Arab leaders have spoken against/condemned the actions of Hezbollah are either watching too much Fox News or have not had the opportunity to listen to or read what the rest of the Arab world is saying.

Nearly all the Arab world is against Hezbollah's actions. For obvious reasons, you will hear the average Palestinian support Hezbollah.

You won't read or hear much about Arab leaders' spreaking out against Hezbollah in the U.S. print and broadcast media. Ask yourself, why? Then please let me know.

Here's a sample of what you've been looking for.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...cle%2FShowFull