Just for a change of pace
 

Topic of the day:

Torture.

Apparently we used to love it.

I see that all of our resident outrage has been wasted on more important topics at the moment, like how to punish, in an All-American way of course, those not giving the requisite amount of respect to the song God Bless America.

Discuss.

I would 'love' to see your source of this. Completely unbiased as usual. I will agree you are consistent.

They're official government memos. And we've already established that there is no way on Earth you'll busy yourself even considering reading them. Worldnet Daily probably has a favorable summary for you. But here they are anyway.

This one was particularly delicious. Start at finding a way to call torture something else, and try to talk your way back out of it. It's brilliant, really.

waterboarded must really not be that bad if they had to do it 180 or so times on one guy. All that guy did was plan the 9/11 attacks. I wish they would have just held his head under water until he stopped breathing.



Edit: I feel that these memo's should NOT have been released though. Wrong move by BO in my opinion.

So I can count on you, next time an American is captured by an enemy, to stand tall with his captors in pointing out that it wasn't torture when they put him in a dark box for days on end with just enough air to breathe, then kept awake for 9 days in a row, waterboarded him repeatedly in between which they repeatedly smashed his head against wooden walls, while putting him in positions that wreck his body and muscles, if that were to happen for years at a time?

Yea, I'll see that day.

sorry coudn't find any love in there. In fact in 18 pages it's not mentioned once. I cited the Napolitano report now cite where you saw we used to 'love' torture.

No $hit Steve. Bush's hack lawyers aren't going to use the word "torture" and talk about how much they love it when trying to talk their way out of taking responsibility for torture. That wasn't quite in dispute.

Go through 18 pages and tell me that what's in there doesn't amount to torture, and then see my question for Lori.

that would be nice to think but instead they just behead us and put it on the net. Or if you're really lucky you get to be hung from a bridge and set on fire. Sitting in a box would be a start

They have done worse than waterboarding to our guys that have been captured , go to your local veterans hall and talk to some of the guys that managed to live thru being captured during WW2 , Korea and Vietnam , Im sure making someone think they are drowning pales in comparision to what these men went thru. What do you think would have worked to get information out of someone who would like to blow your whole country up?

For the record Senator McCain cant lift his arms above his chest why do you think that is , because they were nice to him ?

I'm not talking about the word torture but the word love. You said we 'loved' torture.

I wasn't really asking for moral judgment, just wondered whether or not you'd call that torture. I'm not busy comparing it to decapitations...simply trying to understand what's torture and what's not. The moral equivalency portion of the conversation isn't really helpful...or relevant for that matter.

That was strictly my editorializing, which I'll take credit for.

If I weren't trying to editorialize, I would have said obviously we went well out of our way for years to find pathetic justifications for torturing people without having to be responsible for admitting that we were torturers, instead of saying we "loved it,"

I'd call it torture but I called my marriage torture as well.

I will start this by pointing out that I am not compassionate when it comes to terrorists... and I dont give a darn about torture.. and I may not be completely rational when it comes to this topic, nor does my stance go with any party's way of thinking.

I would have just killed the guy and saved the time and money.

And the next time an American is captured by the enemy, that American will most likely be be-headed on camera and posted on the internet. And the enemy will do that again and again whether we torture their prisoners or treat them like Bernie Madoff (who I think should be tortured also). By the way, I am also for cutting rapists dicks off...


What I am against is releasing memo's that could cause more hatred of Americans.

Well, that surprises me based on the company you keep in most of these issues, marriage included.

I'd also much prefer being contorted and put in a box w/little air than being hung from a bridge set on fire but call me crazy

1.) Well if it happens, I'll ask you then.

2.) What I'm against, is having to even HAVE memos in the first place trying to excuse OUR torture. If we're supposed to be the beacon of hope and moral good in the world, we shouldn't be torturing in the first place. No matter how much you hate someone or how many dicks you want to collect from them...that's what there is to be against. Releasing these memos isn't what causes hatred of Americans. Torturing people does...one just finally admits what everyone with half a brain knew...that we did the other.

I make a better boyfriend than husband I guess or maybe prefer a girlfriend to a wife? No teabagging though.

Fine I'll admit if thats what you want... it WAS torture.. and it doesnt bother me one bit! But I'm a crazy bitch like that!

And if I was in that situation that you posted before... I wouldnt waste time trying to tell them one thing or another... I'd be trying to put bullets in everyone's head.

Who wouldn't.

But again, I don't care about the comparisons. I get that a great deal of these terrorists (or people we assume are terrorists, since we're not even sure because we haven't charged more than about 5 of them) are incredibly unsavory people and probably deserve worse.

It's a matter of principle. Do we torture or do we not? And if that's torture, I don't care if that person would cut your head off given the chance, it's still torture and we should be better than that, no?

Perhaps if the enemy were waging a "fair" war against us I might have a bigger problem with torture but they are not and did not . They killed thousands of innocent people for no good reason , they really dont deserve to be treated like prisoners of war under the Geneva Convention.
I trust that the people involved did what they could to get results and really I hope all of those suckers that Obama is going to free tell their friends "hey those Americans dont mess around when they capture you" so you better hope you die right away when you mess with them.

I'll call it what it was--------brief.

And the day has been saved.

I wasn't home from the wedding reception and out of my suit before I heard the 'marriage' was on the rocks. Three hours of wedded bliss......and here I thought it would never last.

Thank you. I now have a better understanding as to what it is exactly that I am threatening in such a grave way.

You got to spend 3 hrs w/the Nazi in-laws and got yelled at. Just imagine the horror at the prospect of walking to their house every night after ice cream. Sitting in a closed van in 90 degree weather w/a 6'5" farting smoker was the day's highlight back then.

Remind me to tell you about my workplace sometime this summer.

:rolleyes:

some republican's have come quite a ways from ronald reagan's america as a "bright shining city on a hill" analogy.

to be fair, good men like john mccain did all they could to mitigate the damage being done in the bush years (which makes honu's use of him as an example for use of torture a surrealistic misfire).

but for the most part i guess most just gave up the idea of being a nation founded on ideals like the rule of law. it's just eye for an eye time.

Great Post! People fighting out of uniform have no protection under Geneva Convention.

I will buy a beer for you if I am up that way.
I like tales of woe and comedy.

it's funny in a sad way...some folks are spewing venom at religious fanatics..and sound very much like them.

This subject I personally have a probem with.
I dont think anything needs to be taken off the
table when you have a terrorist situation.

If you have a group with a nuke, in the middle
of LA, waiting to blow up perfectly innocent
citizens for nothing more to kill and incite fear...
I dont take anything off the table if I get one
of these guys.

The problem comes about where to draw the line.
I dont trust some of our intelligence gatherers.
They have already annointed apparently innocent
people and put them through hell.

It is very difficult. I just cant say no never given
the situation in the 2nd paragraph. But if you keep
"torture" or other intelligence gathering methods
as an option, they will certainly be abused. very hard...

The shows this Sunday made it very clear the CIA did
get major intelligence breakthroughs using some
unsavory means. One by waterboarding. It works very
well in certain situations. In others it apparently is
useless.

But any serious intelligence official will tell you that your second paragraph just doesn't happen.

It happens on '24,' but doesn't actually happen in real life -- ticking time bomb scenarios are stuff of fantasy and television. Torture does not come up when deciding whether or not to torture or save Los Angeles. It's a great straw man for backing torture, however, that lots of people use when they don't have a real, substantive argument.

They might tell you it does not happen.
But there is no way they can tell you it
cannot happen. I seriously never thought
anything like NY could happen.

We had over 2000 people
killed and it could have been 10X that many.
If you are holding people that can give you
evidence about a plot going down, I dont see
how anyone can say absolutely not. Other airplanes
are about to be boarded and you can get info
using a method that is outlawed...?
There is no way I could say you cannot use this
method knowing that it could lead to the slaughter
of a bunch of innocent people living in a crowded
urban area.

I don't think that any of us has a real clue as to what the CIA does or needs to do in order to keep us safe from the threats that have existed and continue to exist for decades. Who here is really qualified to understand any of these things in a meaningful context? Maybe it is distasteful but I have a hard time believing that the intelligence agencies of virtually every country in the world use tactics that dont work. Obviously we would all prefer terrorists to roll over without resorting to torture but I would guess that this is not the case in a great deal of cases but how would I really know? Some things are just better off unknown...

Brian how the hell do you know that? Because some guy trying to sell a book says so? This is a subject that we (hopefully) will never have to have to deal with firsthand.

It was made clear to me on Sunday that
valuable intelligence can be gathered by
waterboarding. It does work in some cases.

Hell I dont even know what criteria is used
to call a method torture. There is physical toture
that is not as bad as mental torture apparently and obviously vice
versa. I just dont want methods that do work in some cases
automatically dismissed. Yet I know there is a chance
and a higher probability the methods will be abused.

Im a mess on this situation.

just feed them my monster in laws cooking. they'll tell you anything you want to know to avoid that sludge.

In-law torture is the worst kind of mental abuse...