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-   -   Baffert, Point Given among Hall of Fame finalists (http://www.derbytrail.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28070)

Kasept 02-25-2009 12:48 PM
Baffert, Point Given among Hall of Fame finalists
 
Baffert among Hall of Fame finalists
By Jay Privman

http://www.drf.com/news/article/101886.html

Trainer Bob Baffert, a three-time winner of the Kentucky Derby, is on the ballot for the first time as a finalist for the Hall of Fame, it was announced Tuesday by the National Museum of Racing and Hall of Fame. Baffert is one of just two finalists for trainer along with the late Bob Wheeler, mirroring last year's ballot, when Wheeler was a finalist with Carl Nafzger, who was elected.

A minimum of two and maximum of four finalists can be named in four categories, according to rules currently in place by the Hall of Fame. In the other three categories, there were three finalists each. According to the Hall's current rules, only one can get in from each category, unless there is a tie for first.

Eddie Maple, Randy Romero, and Alex Solis - all of whom have been finalists before - are the jockeys up for election.

Best Pal, Point Given, and Tiznow are the finalists in the contemporary male category.

The contemporary female category numbers Open Mind, Silverbulletday, and Sky Beauty.

Baffert trained Point Given and Silverbulletday.

The 11 finalists were chosen from a pool of 91 nominees by the Hall's 16-member nominating committee. A total of 180 people will receive ballots. The winners will be inducted in Saratoga Springs on Aug. 14.

slotdirt 02-25-2009 12:51 PM
I think Baffert is deserving at this point, and if forced to choose between Best Pal, Point Given, and Tiznow, I'd go with Tiznow without hesitation.

gales0678 02-25-2009 12:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kasept
Baffert among Hall of Fame finalists
By Jay Privman

Trainer Bob Baffert, a three-time winner of the Kentucky Derby, is on the ballot for the first time as a finalist for the Hall of Fame, it was announced Tuesday by the National Museum of Racing and Hall of Fame.

Baffert is one of just two finalists for trainer along with the late Bob Wheeler, mirroring last year's ballot, when Wheeler was a finalist with Carl Nafzger, who was elected.

A minimum of two and maximum of four finalists can be named in four categories, according to rules currently in place by the Hall of Fame. In the other three categories, there were three finalists each. According to the Hall's current rules, only one can get in from each category, unless there is a tie for first.

Eddie Maple, Randy Romero, and Alex Solis - all of whom have been finalists before - are the jockeys up for election.

Best Pal, Point Given, and Tiznow are the finalists in the contemporary male category.

The contemporary female category numbers Open Mind, Silverbulletday, and Sky Beauty.

Baffert trained Point Given and Silverbulletday.

The 11 finalists were chosen from a pool of 91 nominees by the Hall's 16-member nominating committee. A total of 180 people will receive ballots. The winners will be inducted in Saratoga Springs on Aug. 14.

steve - i was a fan of steady edidie but are any of these 3 really hall of famer?

i think of cordero , vasquez, day , mccaron , bailey to name a few but i don't know about these 3 - any thoughts if any of the 3 will make it?

Kasept 02-25-2009 12:55 PM
Compared to some in there, like Smith and Kent D., Romero and Maple were certainly HOF worthy..

gales0678 02-25-2009 12:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kasept
Compared to some in there, like Smith and Kent D., Romero and Maple were certainly HOF worthy..
agreed -

sumitas 02-25-2009 01:28 PM
What is Baffert's record insofar as suspensions for drug abuse of his horses ?

cakes44 02-25-2009 01:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kasept
Compared to some in there, like Smith and Kent D., Romero and Maple were certainly HOF worthy..

How about Earlie Fires? Isn't he in there?

SniperSB23 02-25-2009 01:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sumitas
What is Baffert's record insofar as suspensions for drug abuse of his horses ?
There was the morphine suspension in 2001 that eventually got thrown out in court. Don't know if there were any others.

KirisClown 02-25-2009 01:33 PM
It's time for Sky Beauty to finally get in...

Danzig 02-25-2009 01:39 PM
here's hoping for randy romero!! but then, i've said that a few times before.

CSC 02-25-2009 01:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SniperSB23
There was the morphine suspension in 2001 that eventually got thrown out in court. Don't know if there were any others.
Wasn't there a controversy regarding War Emblem after Baffert took over for Reavis, a drug to help out his joints?

slotdirt 02-25-2009 02:06 PM
War Emblem was always rumored to have been nerve blocked in the Belmont, but what do I know?

the_fat_man 02-25-2009 02:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kasept
Compared to some in there, like Smith and Kent D., Romero and Maple were certainly HOF worthy..
I beg to differ. At least Kent can ride when he wants to and actually has a strong sense of pace/race dynamics. Maple was a wide riding, clueless clown whose best attribute was that he was WHITE, and how Romero ever got in the mix (and Solis) is just flat out ridiculous. Romero? Solis? Maple? What is this the SPECIAL, the CHALLENGED Hall of Fame for jocks? Who's next, Luzzi and Potts?

The Indomitable DrugS 02-25-2009 02:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by slotdirt
if forced to choose between Best Pal, Point Given, and Tiznow, I'd go with Tiznow without hesitation.
I'd give a razor thin edge to Best Pal - but he doesn't have a shot because he's paired with two other West Coast horses.

In BP's career - he was just 1-for-9 when he ran at a track outside of the Southern Cal circuit. He might edge out Tiznow and Point Given slightly as far as West Coast voters go ... but I doubt he gets a single vote outside of the West.

Tiznow was 3-for-4 and Point Given 5-for-8 outside of So Cal.

All of these three horses each had a run where they strung together four outstanding race.

For Best Pal it was '91:

* Won the Gr 2 San Fernando by 3.5 lengths over Olympio with a 121 Beyer

* Won the Grade 1 Strub by 1.25 lengths over Dinard with a 119.

* Won the Grade 1 Big Cap by 5.50 lengths over Twighlight Agenda with a 123

* Won the Grade 1 Oaklawn Park Cap by 1.25 lengths over Sea Cadet with a 121

For Tiznow it was '00:

* 2nd in Pacific Classic to Skimming with 115 Beyer

* Won the Super Derby by 6 with a 114 Beyer

* Won the Goodwood by a half length with a 119

* Won the Breeders Cup Classic over Giant's Causeway with a 117


For Point Given it was '01:

Winning the Preakness, Belmont (by 12+), Haskell, and Travers with 111, 114, 106, 117.

The Indomitable DrugS 02-25-2009 02:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CSC
Wasn't there a controversy regarding War Emblem after Baffert took over for Reavis, a drug to help out his joints?
He took over from Frank Springer. War Emblem dusted my future book bet Repent by 6+ lengths and got a 112 Beyer in his final Derby prep.

Considering the pokey pace in that years Derby - and WE's candy trip - I doubt Baffert moved him up a yard.

The Indomitable DrugS 02-25-2009 02:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by the_fat_man
I beg to differ. At least Kent can ride when he wants to and actually has a strong sense of pace/race dynamics. Maple was a wide riding, clueless clown whose best attribute was that he was WHITE, and how Romero ever got in the mix (and Solis) is just flat out ridiculous. Romero? Solis? Maple? What is this the SPECIAL, the CHALLENGED Hall of Fame for jocks? Who's next, Luzzi and Potts?
I agree.

gales0678 02-25-2009 02:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS
I agree.

hall of fame s/b tough tough tough to get into , even above avg riders should not get in , but once 1 gets in , then u can make a point for many other above avg riders

philcski 02-25-2009 02:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by slotdirt
I think Baffert is deserving at this point, and if forced to choose between Best Pal, Point Given, and Tiznow, I'd go with Tiznow without hesitation.
At first instinct that's what I thought too, but after thinking about it more I'm not so sure. I still think so but it's closer than I originally thought. Best Pal was pretty awesome for a long time, and thoroughly dominated the Cal racing scene for 5 years. I always think of him as a great older horse but he swept the important Cal 2yo races, and ran 2nd in the Derby. Point Given, I was never a huge fan but it's hard to argue against his massive ability- his Belmont was one of the best performances I've ever seen live.

Gun to my head I still say Tiznow.

The Indomitable DrugS 02-25-2009 02:35 PM
Tiznow is 1/5 to take it in my opinion.

The filly and mare three are actually much harder to split. Sky Beauty has the same problem Best Pal has ... all of her success came on one circuit and her record was not impressive at all away from it.

I think Silverbulletday should win it ... but I'd make her just 13/10 to get it.

KirisClown 02-25-2009 02:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS
Tiznow is 1/5 to take it in my opinion.

The filly and mare three are actually much harder to split. Sky Beauty has the same problem Best Pal has ... all of her success came on one circuit and her record was not impressive at all away from it.

I think Silverbulletday should win it ... but I'd make her just 13/10 to get it.
Out of curiosity.. how did Silverbulletday do outside of age restricted races?

The Indomitable DrugS 02-25-2009 02:45 PM
She won the Doubledogdare!

Handicappy 02-25-2009 02:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Danzig
here's hoping for randy romero!! but then, i've said that a few times before.
Not as many times as I've been hoping for Eddie Maple. I still think it is astonishing he isn't in. I go to the ceremony every year and every year I leave shaking my head looking at who is in there ahead of him.

letswastemoney 02-25-2009 02:49 PM
Didn't Best Pal take the 93 Hollywood Gold Cup as well? And the 95 San Antonio? I'd give it to Best Pal...Point Given didn't race long enough....Tiznow might deserve it as well....But I want to see Best Pal get this

slotdirt 02-25-2009 02:54 PM
Totally off topic, but how are Point Given, Best Pal, and Tiznow up for the Hall of Fame while Black Tie Affair will never get consideration in about 1,832 years?

KirisClown 02-25-2009 02:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS
She won the Doubledogdare!
She's 1-9 to get in this year...

NTamm1215 02-25-2009 02:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KirisClown
Out of curiosity.. how did Silverbulletday do outside of age restricted races?
Terribly. She made seven starts against older horses and won only once, the aforementioned Doubledogdare. She was beaten in six of her last seven starts, including twice by Beautiful Pleasure, twice by Heritage of Gold and twice to end her career by Lu Ravi.

All in all, Silverbulletday's final seven losses came either to males or older females in graded stakes races.

I've personally believed she was overrated for quite some time, but the two she's up against might not be enough to keep her from getting into the Hall.

NT

Handicappy 02-25-2009 03:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by the_fat_man
I beg to differ. At least Kent can ride when he wants to and actually has a strong sense of pace/race dynamics. Maple was a wide riding, clueless clown whose best attribute was that he was WHITE, and how Romero ever got in the mix (and Solis) is just flat out ridiculous. Romero? Solis? Maple? What is this the SPECIAL, the CHALLENGED Hall of Fame for jocks? Who's next, Luzzi and Potts?
Maple rode many if not most of Woody Stephens' horses in the 1970s and 1980s. I don't think he would have riden him if he was so clueless. There have been jocks who are in the hall that have indicated that it is a great over-sight that Eddie hasn't gotten in. But we are all going to like certain riders for certain reasons. The hall is for what they have accomplished in their career. I wince at some who get in so early. But to throw Luzzi into this is a bit silly, don't you think?

The Indomitable DrugS 02-25-2009 03:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NTamm1215
Terribly. She made seven starts against older horses and won only once, the aforementioned Doubledogdare. She was beaten in six of her last seven starts, including twice by Beautiful Pleasure, twice by Heritage of Gold and twice to end her career by Lu Ravi.

All in all, Silverbulletday's final seven losses came either to males or older females in graded stakes races.

I've personally believed she was overrated for quite some time, but the two she's up against might not be enough to keep her from getting into the Hall.

NT
Open Mind was never better than 3rd in her 5 tries outside of age restricted races.

The three times Sky Beauty was not more than 0.40-to-1 outside of age restricted races - she got wholloped each time as well.

Sillverbulletday didn't win those good races against older - but she ran quite fast in all but one of them. Her Beyers of 109 and 110 in defeat look pretty good when you consider Azeri only twice reached those levels.

Silverbullletday won the Alabama by 9 lengths with a 115 Beyer. Sky Beauty got just a 98 Beyer in her Alabama win by comparison.

Silverbulletday won 11 straight Graded Stake races against members of her own sex - and ran a triple digit Beyer in each one. She also shipped well ... which is why I think she gets the slight nod.

The Indomitable DrugS 02-25-2009 03:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by slotdirt
Totally off topic, but how are Point Given, Best Pal, and Tiznow up for the Hall of Fame while Black Tie Affair will never get consideration in about 1,832 years?
Anytime a horse goes off at 56/1 in the ILL Derby during the 3yo season and 133/1 odds in the Met Mile during there 4-year-old season... there probably not going to sniff the Hall of Fame no matter how many wire-to-wire wins they stack up later on in there career.

slotdirt 02-25-2009 03:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS
Anytime a horse goes off at 56/1 in the ILL Derby during the 3yo season and 133/1 odds in the Met Mile during there 4-year-old season... there probably not going to sniff the Hall of Fame no matter how many wire-to-wire wins they stack up later on in there career.
That I understand, but his 5YO season was pretty phenomenal.

Danzig 02-25-2009 03:16 PM
are they voting in horses and folks at this point just to have entries into the hall of fame each year? they're possibly not worthy, but hell, we need to have a ceremony?

KirisClown 02-25-2009 03:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS
The three times Sky Beauty was not more than 0.40-to-1 outside of age restricted races - she got wholloped each time as well.
Giving 7lbs to Inside Information at Belmont at a mile.. not many would be able to overcome that..

Travis Stone 02-25-2009 03:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KirisClown
Giving 7lbs to Inside Information at Belmont at a mile.. not many would be able to overcome that..
I think weight is really overrated unless you're talking a 20-30 pound spread.

The Indomitable DrugS 02-25-2009 03:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KirisClown
Giving 7lbs to Inside Information at Belmont at a mile.. not many would be able to overcome that..
Believe it or not ... that wasn't one of the times.

She was 0.35-to-1 against Inside Information that day ... her 14-for-14 lifetime record at Belmont Park had a lot to do with that no doubt.

parsixfarms 02-25-2009 03:29 PM
Best Pal is long overdue to get in, just as Manila was last year. He was a Grade I winner at 2, 3, 4, and 5. Who's the last horse to have accomplished that feat? I still vividly remember him winning the inaugural Pacific Classic as a 3YO, defeating Twilight Agenda, Unbridled and others.

The Indomitable DrugS 02-25-2009 03:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Travis Stone
I think weight is really overrated unless you're talking a 20-30 pound spread.
Do me a favor and go post that on the Thoro-Graph or Ragozin board.

Travis Stone 02-25-2009 03:30 PM
The HOF has been suspect at best. From constantly changing-up the nomination and voting policies, to allowing some very questionable talent in, it seems to have lost its punch versus what the HOF means in other sports.

I respect and truly enjoy steeplechase racing, but when they toss in three or four every other year or whatever it is, it seems lopsided when you compare # of t-breds versus steeplechase horses, and their respective participants.

Thunder Gulch 02-25-2009 03:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS
Open Mind was never better than 3rd in her 5 tries outside of age restricted races.

The three times Sky Beauty was not more than 0.40-to-1 outside of age restricted races - she got wholloped each time as well.

Sillverbulletday didn't win those good races against older - but she ran quite fast in all but one of them. Her Beyers of 109 and 110 in defeat look pretty good when you consider Azeri only twice reached those levels.

Silverbullletday won the Alabama by 9 lengths with a 115 Beyer. Sky Beauty got just a 98 Beyer in her Alabama win by comparison.

Silverbulletday won 11 straight Graded Stake races against members of her own sex - and ran a triple digit Beyer in each one. She also shipped well ... which is why I think she gets the slight nod.
I loved Silverbulletday and think she was amazing in the spring of her 3yo year. Maybe she didn't develop past that, but the races up until her Belmont Stakes race were as impressive as any other filly in the last 20 years IMO.

Travis Stone 02-25-2009 03:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS
Do me a favor and go post that on the Thoro-Graph or Ragozin board.
Will you be my bodyguard if I do?

parsixfarms 02-25-2009 03:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS
She was 0.35-to-1 against Inside Information that day ... her 14-for-14 lifetime record at Belmont Park had a lot to do with that no doubt.
That she was 1-5 against future Hall of Famer Inside Information speaks volumes about her ability.


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