to geld or not to geld
 

that is the question . my colt is out being broken and i have been advised he should be gelded . should this be done now ? i really don't want to reduce his personality and spirit .

thanks for your input .

Kelso and Forego and John Henry and The Tin Man and our late lamented Border Collie Hobbes had plenty of 'personality and spirit.' These qualities do not reside in the testicles. It is likely that your boy is a) showing too much interest in the ladies, and becoming difficult to control or even dangerous as a result, or b) is getting too heavy in the shoulder/neck area too young, which would put him at risk for front leg injuries. Unless your colt is a grade AA pedigreed stud prospect you paid a mint for, gelding is a logical choice in many cases. Hash it over thoroughly with your trainer.

Are there physical issues or strictly behavorial?

ask the_fat_man

Alfred Vanderbilt was asked once about gelding and said (I paraphrase) "If I had gelded every colt I ever had, I'd have only made one mistake." he spoke of Native Dancer.

For all but the very best runners, you are probably better off gelding them. Some of the best runners materialize after the procedure but if they never get to show their best, they'll not likely be well supported in the stud. Also, look at how many top class racehorses fail at stud anyhow.

This should be done now as i find it better while they are still working as it allows the blood to flow abit better & lessens the affects of flys etc the only times i would not consider gelding is when as stated above the horse is worth a few bob or i wanted him to be fulled out a bit more but would still do it before it raced or last but not least if he showed no colt incling towards the mares but if they have advised it allready id say the chances are he knows all about the mares so id say yes geld him & GET HIS MIND BACK ON RACING;)

Were did you decide to send your horse to get broke?

i doubt it will reduce his personality or spirit-john henry is a perfect example of that.
if the pro's say geld him, geld him. no time like the present.

I'm sorry I just think we have too little information. "Because it's there" is a reason to climb Mt. Everest or go to the moon (there's so much noble meaning attached in those situations) but when it comes to removing his whatsits, just cuz he has 'em isn't reason to take'em. I'm gonna take a wild guess that they say he's hard to handle and figure he's not some blueblood so they can try to take him down a notch as it were. If it's making him uncomfortable that might have something to do with it--is he a ridgling?

What's his breeding, we might be able to offer some suggestions from that. How's he built? I mean if you've got god's gift to sport horses on your hands you might rethink it--would he make a good quarter horse sire? I just hesitate to snip snip just because one man's "difficult" is another man's "spirited." I mean Tiznow and War Emblem were not easy customers, and WE was out and out mean. The front end weight thing I get, is it his growth though or the training methods? There might be dieting or exercise changes to consider first. I figure put yourself in his position. Wouldn't you want someone going 'hey now wait a minute, is it necessary?' Probably is and probably won't make him a world beater cuz most horses aren't anyway but give it more thought. I don't know the people giving the evaluation, maybe ask the vet for a different perspective. It won't necessary effect spirit so if he's difficult now, it's no guarantee that won't stay. John Henry didn't get better. Don't assume, if you don't want to breed him, that you'll solve your problems by gelding and don't assume you'll get the next Forego afterward either. You might be doing everyone a favor by removing a lousy stallion prospect from the gene pool but it depends on the horse.

If you're going to geld a colt, the cooler weather is so much better. I'd rather have a really nice gelding than a mediocre stallion. I have a colt that I bred that became a world champion. He was not a breeding horse and is a way better gelding.

Here's MY advice: make EUNUCHS out of yourself and those suggesting that you cut the colt before it even has a chance to show you whether it can focus on running or not. This isn't certain but I'm thinking that this won't reduce YOUR 'personality and spirit", as you can just load up on hormone shots and get some cosmetic nuts.

While you're at it, take Ward, Reynolds, Hough, and all the other cut happy MOFO's masquerading as trainers with you. Let's make the EUNUCH fashionable again.

Of course, if the nut cutting stopped, then all those hanging around to bet new geldings would actually need to get a clue otherwise.

P.S.

Plenty of HORNY horses out there that do just fine when it comes to running.

On a more serious note, I'd be interested to know whether horsemen in other areas (Europe, S. America, Asia, and Australia) are as quick to cut as their American counterparts.

Ask the trainer why he suggests cutting the colt , odds are the guy who is around the horse everyday and has been training for a long time would not just say cut him for no good reason.

When our office mail man asked why horses are gelded I asked him, "If your balls were cut off would your route be shorter or longer in time" He didn't answer but when he brought up MILF's I knew the answer.

i'd cut off the tongue of the chatty bastard and really save some time.

Oh you don't know the half of it. But I can't type fast enough. Satan's Twin can give a better description. But the guy is responsible for one key and when I asked his super how he keeps track of it he said he ties it to his vodka bottle.

In Australia/New Zealand, it is not unusual to see geldings winning the major races that the mares don't. Especially in NZ, many prospects are bred on farms that keep only a handful of mares as a sideline and they don't have room to pasture their yearlings separately, so the colts must be gelded.

For a long time Aussie breeders were convinced that any import was a better stallion prospect than the local product, so locally bred colts were routinely gelded. Three of the last five AJC Derby winners have been geldings.

The Euros, on the other hand, disdain geldings and won't let them run in their Group 1 races, which is why Teleprompter had to come over here to get a G1 win. And why Donativum is considering trying for the Kentucky Derby rather than his own.

I think you should take Honu's advice.

Good luck to you.

Not going against you as i know very little of euro racing but Takeover Target & Saintly were both geldings & won group 1s in europe

Really? This whole thread went by with mostly serious posts and not a single Golden Missile reference? Low point in Nerdy Trail history.

tx friends .

my NY bred colt, foaled 3/25/07 and raised on the farm where he was born, has been out for breaking since Dec.23 at Quiet Woman Training Center . They had stalls that opened up then whereas other facilities nearby were full . I have no trainer yet, just a short list of 3 at this point . The mgr of Quiet Woman says he is "very difficult and his testicles get in the way." She says he is behind schedule . On a positive note she says he is conformed well, is sound, and eats well . He is a big boy and I'd prefer to see how he runs before considering the geld .

So we have arrived at this point . He will continue his training and she will keep me updated . My plans are to turn him out back at Irish Hill after he's broke until April . By then I will have a trainer, etc.

Assuming you're a real person you seem like someone who cares about the horses' welfare. So look at the situation at Hollywood Park this week where some 3yo colt freaked out and killed himself and a 6yo gelding. Do you really want to have your horse pull the same and know that you said the horse shouldn't be gelded?

My colt is a friendly sort, mild mannered but firm, independent and not craving attention . He is not a nut case, not high strung . We're going to give him more time to acclimate himself to the breaking process before a decision is made to geld .

"very difficult and his testicles get in the way."

Sounds like he literally may be a nut case.

OOOOOOOOOO

your description of your horse directly contradicts that of the trainer....she's around the horse every day. You should listen to her. He's not a stallion prospect by any means and you are probably doing him a disservice by keeping him intact....that is if you actually want to see him get to the races. The longer you wait the more "difficult" he is likely to get....what she is actually telling you is that the horse is an ass.hole and has to have his ass kicked in order to get him to do his job....are you really a fan of having your horse beaten?

lol

the positives you mention don't negate the negatives. he's behind schedule, very difficult. having good conformation won't fix those.
even if he turns out a good runner, i don't think his breeding would make him a prospect. the manager, who is probably well-versed in this game, suggests you geld. i think you should follow her advice.
you may never get to see him run if he only becomes more difficult. be pro-active, not reactive. geld him, i doubt you'll ever regret it. while not gelding him-may cause plenty more problems down the road.

The only G1-winning Saintly I know of was an Aussie - Cox/Melbourne Cup winner; his only venture overseas was to Japan, where he became ill and couldn't start.

You're right about the Euro G1 sprints, though (and the Cup races, too) - it's mostly the classic-type races that the Euros don't want geldings in, because those are the races that determine those colts worthy of breeding on. That said, Takeover Target was another Aussie with established top-level class Down Under.

It's actually a weird mindset in England regarding entires vs. geldings. Entires are trying to make themselves stallions, so they often run in G3s and LRs where they might not quite fit to get that precious notation, instead of in the big handicaps with a couple times the money but no official black type. So you have a highly competitive 30-runner race worth $200K+ not 'worthy' of black-type, but a 5-runner race worth $35K is. Owners of good geldings in a country where purses for everyday races make no pretense of covering expenses know where to run.

One of my favorite handicappers in Britain for the last couple of years has been Borderlescott. He was able to compete in G3s and LRs, but he could earn more in the non-black-type handicaps like his favorite, the Steward's Cup at Goodwood (a win, a short-head second, and a blanket-finish 3rd) so his 'offical' stakes record only hints at how he earned his money. Even though he won a G1 last summer, his handicap earnings still exceed his 'stakes' earnings. And since he is a gelding, he doesn't need group wins to put in the stallion ads.

he's a big, heavy colt so i'm leaning toward the geld to slow the bulk .

I AM THE OWNER , I KNOW, I RULE...
:zz: :D

tx everyone . i'm leaving it up to Heather, the farm mgr .

as you should

we have a powerful pyhiscal horse here . so young . thanks for your input .

If every NY bred colt ever was gelded how many mistakes would have been made?

just kidding about the owner chest pounding :D

I'm leaving it up to Heather to decide what's best .

wants to geld the entire male race^^^ humans

Funny Cide and Commentator?

Wasn't Funny Cide's situation physical discomfort? I don't have my FC book with me that I got last Christmas.

The horse's breeding hasn't been put up so I'm going to assume we're not to know what it is. The idea of the horse being "behind schedule" is funny because not all horses are on the same one--Nicanor for instance shot up like a weed over summer and they had to slow down for awhile. He won't have started til late Jan/early Feb of his 3yo season. Is it certain he's not just late maturing? Some get in their own way when young. Bulky doesn't always equate to precocious.

He is not a stallion prospect although his breeding is solid .