Tale of Ekati to the Jerome
 

Really? He made middle moves and then retreated in six of seven two-turn races. Now you finally decide to cut him back to one turn when Edgar mentions something about distance?

Everything they've done with this horse since the Derby has been mind-boggling. I'm hoping he still has enough left in the tank to be as effective around one turn as I think he could've been.

Super Mod...Super Fly...Super Trainer:rolleyes:

His handling has been embarrassing...

Anyone smart enough to have a kindergarten diploma knew this horse wanted to go "a little bit shorter" for a long time now...

you might find THIS interesting

He also won the Grade 1 Wood Memorial at 1 1/8 miles. Other than the King's Bishop, which obviously I feel he should have run in ( and would have won ), where was he getting a Grade 1 going shorter?

However, and more importantly, trainer's often take the heat for owner decisions. It's part of their job.

This is why I said I don't agree with anything they've done SINCE the Derby. He did win the Wood (by outstaggering a gutted War Pass), but the decisions after his retreating fourth in the Derby to first go 12 furlongs, then run two more two-turn races, were laughable, IMO.

I obviously don't know whether it was Fipke or Tagg making those calls, but as you yourself said when I brought up - after the Derby - cutting him back, "doesn't it seem as if Tagg always wants his horses to go a distance of ground?"

go to grass?

How come you have an avatar on Pace?

He knew Tagg was a moron before everyone else.

I'd tell him to do a victory lap on his tricycle but then he wouldn't be able to sit the perfect trip with no one else to draft in behind.

The only embarrassing item here is your post. Another "computer-armchair trainer". How many horses have YOU trained? Ever won the KY Derby? The Wood? The Preakness?

Surely, TAGG knows his stock and thoroughbreds. Maybe THE OWNER of TOE wanted to race at SAR in the 1 1/4 mile TRAVERS. TOE won a G-1 at 1 1-18 miles:zz:

Tagg competes on the toughest circuit in the US. The only one clueless here is YOU.

"Also scheduled to appear is Kentucky Derby-winning trainer Barclay Tagg, who will stop by to discuss his 2008 Saratoga meet experiences. Tagg was the renowned trainer of Kentucky Derby winner and local hero Funny Cide, and trains Parting Glass Racing?s Dave, the New York Thoroughbred Breeder?s 2007 Male Turf Champion. Tagg is ranked 9th as a leading trainer at Saratoga this summer, with more than $406,530 in earnings to date." :zz:

If you would quit typing through tears for two seconds and actually read, you'd see that KirisClown didn't say anything about TAGG.

I also was not blaming Tagg, but rather all of the connections since I don't know for sure who was pulling the strings.

Obviously, Tagg is a competent trainer. Who could possibly say otherwise in the face of that clipping from a Parting Glass Stable press release lauding Tagg's ninth-place standing at Saratoga. Well done, let's never question his credentials again, because he campaigned Dave.

I love that reasoning.

I guess since I've never been a president of any country, I'm not qualified to say if a president sucks or not.

Or since I've never run an oil company, I guess saying the oil companies are raping all of us would be another unqualified comment.

Banks? Hah!

Perhaps Kiri has something Tagg doesn't. A brain.

By the way, I knew Tagg was an idiot before The Fat Man's post on the other board! The crap that would come out of his big mouth when he was training Showing Up was quite unbelievable.

And don't you dare criticize me about this, since clearly you've never been me!

Please...he would not have won The Kings Bishop....he would have gotten ANOTHER ground saving trip and failed again. He got the dream trip of a lifetime in The Wood and still barely won. This horse hasnt run a good race all year.

You know who will crush him if they meet in The Jerome.

Them is fighting words you bastar#.

Court Vision got a dream trip in the Woodward. Tale of Ekati, as usual, made a middle move and got tired after the second turn, still managing to outstagger a fried pacesetter and a horrible closer in slow time.

To me, Tale of Ekati is like a poor man's Macho Again. Decent around two turns, would be very good around one.

Explain something to me; at the broadest level.

If there's a race in which 3 of the top 5 horses, at the qtr and half mile calls, finish in the top 4, and the top 3 at the 6f and 8f calls finish 1-2-4, and only a single horse comes (way) off the pace, to finish 3rd, how is it that THAT horse got the perfect trip?

Yes.....The Visionairephone. It has 2 ring tones:

Loud voice going " Thats a horrible opinion" = BTW is talking bad about The Mighty Visionaire


A Liberace song playing= Dahoss talking smack about Visionaire.

What do you have for that all time classic..

"The economy is really good right now"

Thats the ring tone for the Moronphone.

Justindew has a monopoly on all the lines to that phone.




Funny how he disappeared since the stock market has gone to hell since his bold proclamation. Typical of a person of his beliefs. When wrong....run....and hide your head in the sand.

Not sure about what bike riding means. I thought everyone on here knew you are a huge Liberace fan ? If not....my bad.

Do you really want me to 'explain', or are you just trying to get a debate going? To not think that Court Vision got a dream setup is to completely ignore fractions.

ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo









that was funny......a real f#cking stupid idea.....but funny.

Actually Dahoss...giving Morty my number would be harmless. He has been picking up a phone and talking into a dial tone for 20 yrs now. He believes that everyone can hear him when he picks up the receiver and talks.

Is this post a result of eating paint chips? :confused:

I realize that the idea behind numbers is that if your numbers say that a horse got a certain trip, then the horse must've gotten that trip. This is only the case if trips are determined SOLELY by the fractions (or final times). Believe it or not, there are some who don't believe in numbers and believe that the way a race shapes up, ultimately, is more representative. This assumes that there is very little that separates contenders. And, if this is the case, the set of races that are determined by numerical pace is a subset of some larger set.

This isn't quantum physics. The 'truth' isn't hidden from the thing itself. By looking at a race I should be able to tell who got the best and worst of it. And, in this particular case, CV, didn't get the best of it.

In a general sense I agree with you on the race dynamics concept and how, theoretically it should apply in this race, but considering Court Vision's overall pps it is fair to say he benefited from a good setup in the Wood.

I think the better argument is probably that the Wood was a lousy race and only War Pass ran a respectible race all things considered ( one being that 1 1/8 is too far for him....the other obviously being the rabbit ).

You certainly don't have to be a quantim physicist to realize that Court Vision couldn't even pass a horse who ran probably one of the fastest opening quarters in a two-turn AQU stake ever.

As a one-run deep closer (plodder), what setup would've been more beneficial to Court Vision?

This "horses who were A-B-C-D early ran Z-Y-X-W" analysis is useful, but only when used in conjuction with early and late fractions and with some idea of how good those A-B-C-D horses are.

Only very special horses run down front runners that have gotten away without getting some help from horse(s) ahead of them. Your mistake here, is that you assume, as is natural, that the only way a frontrunner has an advantage is by running slow fractions. In fact, running very fast, without being challenged at a key point in the race, and then basically crawling home, is equally, if not more effective. In this sense, then, MOVES/race dynamics are superordinate to pace. Think about it.

I agree with everything you're saying, and despite your assumption, I don't think that a frontrunner can only get a good trip by running slow fractions.

Your mistake here is forgetting what happened in the race. War Pass was pressed through absurdly fast fractions for four furlongs by Inner Light. Then came a fresh challenge from Tale of Ekati, moving early as usual. All the while Court Vision is slowly sucking up in behind the frontrunner.

Even if War Pass hadn't had Inner Light with him, after War Pass ran :22 (around a turn mind you) and :46 on that glib track, Court Vision had absolutely no excuse not to pass him, let alone Tale of Ekati, who had to run a sub-:23 second quarter.

Fractions aside, the rabbit was a factor until just before they hit the quarter mark. ToE's "challenge" happened in a 25.43 split. But it wasn't really a challenge and this is key to the race. If ToE is able to put pressure on WP in the turn, then CV wins the race. All ToE is able to do is stagger along (while shutting off the rail for Giant Moon) and luck out when WP collapses late. With ToE not providing the necessary pressure at the key point in the race, WP gets away, and CV does not get the setup you seem to think he did as WP was just too far ahead when he stopped.

Clearly, WP was best in the race. But I don't see how CV ran any worse than the others.

Compare these 2 charts to see the distinction I'm making.