Big Brown
 

While most on here agree that this year's crop of three year olds haven't been that teriffic, that still does not stop me from starting yet another Big Brown thread.

Because while this is still 2008, he has been the best horse for horse racing this year. Curlin may be faster, but we don't know that. We do know that Curlin cannot draw a crowd or have near the fan base that Big Brown does. So Big Brown was much needed for this sport. At least for this year.

Despite his contraversial connections, the Belmont/Triple Crown disappointment, or the slight win over the out of gas apprentice Coal Play in the Haskell, the popularity of Big Brown has not really lost his luster. Afterall the $200K Monmouth Stakes on Saturday is $500K only because the infamous Big Brown is entered. The Haskell saw their best attendance in years because race fans wanted to see Big Brown.

Arguably only Barbaro and maybe Smarty Jones have garnered more fan attention than Big Brown in the past so many years. With the exception of his past two races, the rest were all WINS and have been extremely impressive. Winning from the posts he had at FL DERBY and KY Derby is worth a salute to this horse.

So while I have an affection for Big Brown, I am also sad as his racing career is nearing the end. Most likely he has two races to go including the BCC. Of course I hope he wins them both.

I guess I was wondering your thoughts on how Big Brown left his mark on the 2008 season? Was he good for horse racing?

The Haskell always gets a big crowd.

Big Brown has less appeal than most Derby winners and isn't bringing people to the track at this point. Monmouth has a giveaway and is hoping for 15K. It's not their fault.

I guess I was wondering your thoughts on how Big Brown left his mark on the 2008 season? Was he good for horse racing?


I'd venture that with the preponderance of horses also winning the first two Triple Crown races in recent years (7 of 11 or 12?), he will not have any more of a legacy than a Smarty Jones for awhile.

I think he's especially at risk for being lost in the long term limelight because he was so lightly raced.

That said, if he shows quality as a stallion, he can greatly build his legacy in years going forward.

That said, if he shows quality as a stallion, he can greatly build his legacy in years going forward.



And just to expand on the stallion legacy, I'll point out again that in real time 1977, Seattle Slew was practically swept under the rug with an asterisk.

Slew was just 48 months from the shadows of Secretariat's stunning Belmont and Triple Crown win. And then to compound, Affirmed went back to back with him as a Triple Crown winner just 12 months later.

I was at Belmont the day Seattle Slew went for the Triple Crown, and I heard way more than one fan say something like, "he may have gotten here undefeated, but he's no Forego."

Real time consensus was.....and even I sort of bought into it at the time......that Seattle Slew just kind of coasted to be an Undefeated Triple Crown Winner due mostly to a weak crop of 1977 competition.

I was a more than solid racing fan based in South Florida in the years after his successful Triple Crown campaign and I can attest that Seattle Slew was in the shadows of Secretariat and the Affirmed/Alydar memories for quite a few racing seasons.

It wasn't until people began to take note at the success of his offspring that his legacy really began to build.

Point is, lots of things can affect the legacy of a horse even years after they last step competitively on a track.

That performance in the Belmont Stakes was one for the ages.....:rolleyes:

He's a good horse at best in a year with a lot of.....slow ones.

He's in the middle of your opinion and HHH.

I always value yours.............:{>:


:rolleyes:

Regardless of how history rates him as a racehorse, his lasting impact on the sport can not be denied.

I think we can credit Big Brown and trainer Rick Dutrow for bringing steroids and other med violations to the front of the line in terms of reforming the sport.

For the record, I think Big Brown's performances in the ky and fla derbies were respectively amongst the best in the last ten years in those races.

I don't slap e-women anymore so I'll let that one pass.

Yes.

Good thing for me.

And here I thought you & hossy were an item.

pud cream working?


ooops

And another one.

I don't have the pp's of the Monmouth Stakes I hoped DRF would have them on the site since it is one the ROW's.

Just looking through the pp's, it's clear as day that this is the best field Big Brown has faced. While his turf debut was impressive he was facing a bunch of stiffs on that closing day at the Spa.

I think he's a bet against in this race. Until I can look over the pp's and reacquaint myself with some of the familiar old warriors and the others I won't know for sure how much I should wager against Big Brown.

I'm glad to hear this. Because it looks like I can finally make some money on Big Brown to Win just like I did in the FL and Ky Derbies. I bet him to win at terrible odds on all his races after as well. He's made me some good $$$ this year and I'm ready to claim more if the oddsmakers think the same as you.

When 3 year olds go against "older horses," it's the four and five year olds who scare me most.

Nothing against 8 year olds, but I think there are at least two in that field.

I haven't researched yet, but my inclination is to give a good exotic wagering look at the horse from Dogwood coming in with his 2nd race off a layoff.

If there's a horse I'll be playing against, it's most likely going to be the German bred in this one.

Nothing for certain yet.

Anyone betting Big Brown in that field at the price he will be needs to rethink their paramutuel involvement in the game.

How can you say that when no odds have been posted?

You figuring he'll be about 4:1?

I like to see a horse do one of two things. Either beat really good horses or run really fast races. So far, I haven't seen Big Brown do either. I don't elevate a horse's ability when I know that a major part of what he's accomplished is due to the competition he gets to face. I won't say Big Brown is better than Easy Goer because he won the Derby/Preakness while EG lost them. A horse has got to do something that makes him stand out in a historical perspective. I don't think BB has. I think he's clearly made himself the best of his crop. Nobody argues that. But how much does that mean when the crop is considered one of the weakest in history? Does anyone really believe that Big Brown did something that Smarty Jones, Point Given, Funny Cide, Alysheba, Hansel, Sunday Silence, Afleet Alex, Thunder Gulch, etc....couldn't have done? I don't. Circumstances may determine what you get but they don't determine how good you were in getting them. Big Brown is a fine horse. But for my money, he's not anywhere close to the top of the list of best 3yo's in this decade and I don't think he's my list for best five horses of this year alone.

I have no clue. But I wouldn't mind those odds.

I couldnt imagine he would be that price. In my humble opinion, 5/2 is highest he would go.

......yep, maybe even;)

Curlin was 2:5 against two BC Turf champs in his turf debut. Big Brown has a phony turf win on rock hard turf.

How can he realistically be above even money?

Who would possibly be on your list for top five horses this year ahead of Big Brown? Also if he wins Saturday and the BCC, does he move up in your overall opinion?

BTW i misunderstood you and I made an idiot remark. I thought you meant BIG BROWN would be 4/1. Sorry.

NP. I realized you misread what I wrote.

Huh? I'll be the first to admit my opinion is wrong a lot more than it is correct. If you think Big Brown presents a sound wagering opportunity to make money then all I can say is good luck. If I wager on the race, and quite frankly I could care less about this race, we'll be on different ships.

I said this based on the statement of another poster that strong competition would be in this race. This makes me assume BBs odds will be better for betting since the Ky Derby.

Curlin, Heatseeker, Zenyatta, Proud Spell, Commentator, Indian Blessing, maybe Ginger Punch.

What? No love for the horse who has won 16 in a row?

Peppers Pride?

:)

BTW, the kid on the Dogwood horse in this Saturday's Monmouth Race is Kendrick Carmouche.

In the spirit of the "six degrees," Kendrick Carmouche's Dad was the regular jockey for Hallowed Dreams......one of the other horses who has won 16 in a row.


Sylvester Carmouche.

Sylvester Carmouche got lost in the fog on a track one day. But he never had a mount on Lost in the Fog. :)

(if you've never read the Sylvester Carmouche fog story, do a quick search and I'm sure you'll find it and be entertained as a betting fan)

Kendrick Carmouche of the Charles Town circuit? I'll pass.

Do not ignore Proudinsky if the course has taken a bit of rain. German-breds have to contend with soft courses quite a lot, so the horses who run in the big races must have ability in soft ground, which they pass on to their offspring. That's what gave him the edge in New Orleans.

Brown is a rockstar. Monmouth park will put on a show and there will be a good sized crowd.
Maybe even play some Springsteen.

Anyone seen odds for tomorrow yet?

2-1