Which horses were truly great?
 

I'm already having this debate on another forum and it seems as good a time as any to bring it here. Which horses were truly great? For the purposes of this thread great means they were both brilliant and accomplished and the elite of the elite. Ghostzapper was brilliant but not accomplished enough to fit the definition. Cigar was accomplished but not brilliant enough to fit the definition. Here is who I believe fits the truly great label. Who would you remove or add?

Hindoo (1878)
Kingston (1884)
Salvator (1886)
Colin (1905)
Man o War (1917)
War Admiral (1934)
Count Fleet (1940)
Citation (1945)
Tom Fool (1949)
Native Dancer (1950)
Nashua (1952)
Swaps (1952)
Round Table (1954)
Kelso (1957)
Buckpasser (1963)
Dr Fager (1964)
Damascus (1964)
Secretriat (1970)
Forego (1970)
Seattle Slew (1974)
Affirmed (1975)
Spectacular Bid (1976)


I'm only talking North American based horses and not giving anyone a break cause they are a filly. If their biggest accomplishment is that they beat the boys and are great "for a filly" that doesn't count. All of these horses beat the boys every race and would be otherwordly if they were fillies.

I would be hard pressed not to include Cigar, Skip Away, Alysheba, Ferdinand, Manila, Lure, Miesque, Sunday Silence, Easy Goer, Ladys Secret, Inside information, John Henry, Ruffian, maybe All Along

What about Northern Dancer is what I meant.

To me having 22 that fit the definition of elite of the elite is already too many, you have to draw the line somewhere. All those horses could certainly be called great without an argument but were they truly elites of the elite on the level that the other horses were?

Great topic but just so I can understand and not be reckless in my comments for the future, what do you consider the difference between a great horse vs. a super horse? Or is there no such thing as a super horse? I see that term often on this board.

I guess elite of the elite would probably be similar to what people are referring to as the superhorse.

Miesque, Ladys Secret, Inside information, John Henry, Ruffian, Cigar, were all elites of the elite IMO..

I think Skip Away was faster than Cigar and Skip Away lost too many races for me to consider him in that category. Ruffian was likely on her way but the career was just a little short for me to consider her. I had a tough time even adding Colin with 15 races. John Henry is one I waffled on and certainly has a strong argument to be included. I'm sticking to North American based horses so wouldn't count Miesque.

Do you think you should change your definition based on the style of racing today? If your definition holds then we will never see another elite of the elite because no one races more than 15 times anymore. And your opinion as to why Holy Bull is not on this list?

I dont know how you could include Colin and not Cigar...

I think Unbridled's Song would have been an alltime great had he not been injured his whole career and had a better owner... :D Zito still calls him the best he's ever trained.. and he only trained him for one race his 4yo year! I think he beat Appealing Skier and ran 7 furlongs in 1:21.. off of a looooong layoff!

It is hard to say that there have been no great horses since the 70's. Cigar did something extraordinary, Skip Away was a really top horse who could have competed with the best handicap horses of any era, Likewise with Alysheba and fernidand who also had Triple crown success, Manila and Lure were both as good at what they did as any I ever saw, Miesques 2 mile wins were electric, Sunday Silence and easy Goer were as top notch as 3 year olds as there has been and each kept the other from being a triple crown winner, ladys secret was a warrior, Inside information and Personal Ensign were about as good as you can be, filly or not, as was Ruffian, John Henrys record is almost unmatched and All Along was a tremendous turf horse

If Curlin were brilliant enough he could have certainly had the chance to make the list with his accomplishments. A champion 2yo that developed into a champion 3yo and was brilliant in both seasons could also make the list. There could always be another great gelding. So there is definitely the possibility of seeing another great. Just cause of the lure of the breeding shed I don't think we should drop our expectations.

How about Go For Wand and or/ Bayakoa (sp??)

Kelso and Forgeo lost a lot of races too

Not as a race horse. He was hurt fairly early in his career wasnt he?

Her 2 mile wins were enough for me

Holy Bull should be included too, IMO

Colin was a tough call but 15 for 15 lifetime with an American record is tough to exclude.

You could easily include them especially if you compare to what we consider great 20 years later

They won 60% and 62% respectively. Skip Away didn't even win half of his races.

Expectations should be changed based on the times. Look at MLB. They change the expectations of pitchers elected to the Hall of Fame. We do not see too many complete games these days. That used to be a criteria and now it isnt. There is always room for movement when it comes to expectations. But it is your list so it is your rules.

Chuck according to an earlier thread today you are suppose to be negative. You're giving out too much positive carma here.

Spyder

Who has been elected with lowered expectations?

Alydar would be on the bubble of the Top 25. He should be included in this category for not only his excellent racing accomplishments, but breeding resume as well.

Question (could be a dumb one)...

Is it tougher to get an "All Time Great" today compared to the days of Colin and whatnot.. because the # of foals there are these days are way more than the # back in the good ol' days??

He bowed out after winning the Queens plate. In a span of 7 races he won the Flamingo, Flor Derby, Blue Grass, KY Derby, Preakness and Queens Plate. Ran 3rd or 4th in the Belmont.

These are all nice horses being mentioned that no one is going to have a problem with calling great. I just don't think any of them fit in that top tier with the horses I've mentioned. You could pretty much just list anyone that is in the Hall of Fame if you want to include every horse that can pass for great but what fun is that.

Ok

They are SOOOOOO....great they would win every race these days and set world records and free t shirts for all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I would think so.

Personal Ensign HAS to be on the list.

I dont know anyone who is familar with Colin and racing of the 1910's

I just threw out a name...

Let me ask you this? How many males in the history of this sport would have gone 13 for 13 if allowed to run in the same 13 races as Personal Ensign? I think a lot more than the 22 horses I listed. If she were male would she be regarded as highly or is she so highly regarded because she was so great for a filly?

Then they didn't read the recent article in the Blood-Horse. :D In seriousness, this horse carried an absurd amount of weight by today's standard and off only a few days of rest...I'd definitely include him, but I'd also include a few others that were mentioned in this thread and not 'added'.

there is no way Inside Information can be on that list and not have Azeri.

so she cant be on the list because she didnt run against males?

Did someone really old write the article?

She did and beat them in the Whitney. I just think that if you just treat them all as horses and ignore their sex she wouldn't be in that top tier.

Why? II would have hammered Azeri

its hard to win 13 in a row regardless of competition