Especially To The Critics Of Big Brown
 

More disappointed I could not be with yesterday's outcome. For me a fan of mostly TCs and BC, I realize I probably don't belong here starting several threads like I have over the past few weeks. But I do enjoy the pageantry of it all. Big Brown gave me a fun few months since I first noticed him in the FLA Derby and after that win, made him my favorite for the KD and forward.

I will not accept that this was the same horse I saw yesterday as in the other races, regardless of all the reasons many of you detail quite articulately why he lost. I never said he was in the class of a Secretariat, Seattle Slew, or Affirmed.

So here are my two questions, and of course they are hypothetical.

1. If (big if) Big Brown enters the Travers and wins, combined with a Win, Place, or Show in the BCC, is he vindicated for yesterday? I say vindicated because I have seen too many "Big Bum" references which are highly unfair.

2. If yesterday was Big Brown's last race, will he still win Top 3 year old award for 2008? Or can any late entry for the rest of this year over take that title?

i will go to your second question.... if a 3 yr old strings together a couple graded stakes wins, like jim dandy-travers-breeders cup classic... they could be 3 yr old champ... but at this point who has a shot to do that, assuming heatseeker and curlin run in the classic.

1. If (big if) Big Brown enters the Travers and wins, combined with a Win, Place, or Show in the BCC, is he vindicated for yesterday? I say vindicated because I have seen too many "Big Bum" references which are highly unfair.

Obviously if he returns to his old self he's vindicated for yesterday's clunker . . . but I don't think anyone is arguing that he was exposed for what he really is yesterday - it's obvious that he didn't fire. It is possible, however, that he could win the Travers and even BCC and still be looked at as an ok horse in a terrible crop.


2. If yesterday was Big Brown's last race, will he still win Top 3 year old award for 2008? Or can any late entry for the rest of this year over take that title?

He's still obviously the favorite for the eclipse award at this point - but someone could definitely step up and take it.

i doubt he could win the bcc, not even mentioning curlin, but i think heatseeker and tiago could beat him in cali

I agree - I don't think he can win. . . I'd like to see him go back to turf but that'll never happen.

Obviously if he returns to his old self he's vindicated for yesterday's clunker . . . but I don't think anyone is arguing that he was exposed for what he really is yesterday - it's obvious that he didn't fire.


I have a hard time with your quote "exposed for what he really is." I think we saw a lot of what he really is in the Preakness, Belmont, and FL Derby. Something wasn't right yesterday. Da' Tara lost to Big Brown by 20 something lengths in FL. No other horse raced as much as he did in the past five weeks, and no other horse in the history of the Triple Crown races went against as many horses as Big Brown did (based on a stat ABC showed prior to the race).

The thing I agree with the most that somebody said on another thread is that if Big Brown was a real TC winner, he would have beaten the adversity and won the race. I just feel it was unfortunate that we didn't see the real Big Brown yesterday.

1. Big Brown doesn't need to be vindicated. He's a very good colt who had a lousy day. Anybody writing off Big Brown because of yesterday is never going to give the horse his due anyway.

2. Depends on whether or not any three-year-olds can sweep some summer/fall races. A Travers/BCC double would definitely get it done, and probably a Travers/BCC placing with a JCGC win in between would as well.

You misread what I said - I agree with you that he's obviously a better horse than he showed yesterday. . . No rational person would disagree with that.

With his well publicized 1/4 crack problems are we sure we are going to see him pointed for The Travers? Or do we see him pointed for a turf campaign? Retiring is the other option obcourse.

Totally like your take on #1

What is JCGC and do you or anybody see a 3 yr old out there that could get on a streak like that?

There are several 3 year olds out there right now that are capable of winning big races - but most of their future's are up in the air right now.

Oh, sorry for the misunderstanding on my part.

Jockey Club Gold Cup. It's a Grade I, $1,000,000 race that has lost a lot of its luster (it used to be the equivalent to the Breeders' Cup Classic), but still counts for something. Curlin beat Lawyer Ron in the '07 JCGC.

Right now, there's no three-year-old that looks good enough to run the table this fall, but before the Florida Derby, I wouldn't have banked on a horse blowing the doors off the competition in the first two legs of the Triple Crown, either.

Got it...thanks. BTW, my dad grew up in Brooklyn, E 12th and Ave T then played basketball at Abraham Lincoln then scholarship to Duquesne University. No NBA though :) (I saw you are in Brooklyn)

i don't think i've seen anyone say that big brown was exposed, or the 'real' big brown showed up yesterday. i'd say it's a given that at this point big brown is the cream of the crop. but then, that's not saying a whole hell of a lot this year.
as for the classic, i'll be shocked if he is still around for it-curlin as well. i don't see big brown staying in training, and i don't see curlin going on AWT. now, if big brown and curlin both go (and we see pigs flying at the same time) i would actually think big brown could give curlin a run for his money. it'd be late in the year, big brown would be presumably bigger, stronger, more mature-but the plus for him is his ability on turf, which often translates to ability on AWT. that combined with assmans woeful poly abilities, and curlin having had all his starts on dirt--i'd say it's a crap shoot wether curlin could run on the stuff at the same level as on dirt.

Yeah, I live just outside of Park Slope, although I work on Nostrand Avenue between Avenue S and Avenue T, not too far from where your dad grew up. I cover high school basketball in the city, so I'm really familiar with Lincoln as well.

I agree. He's not the first horse to bounce.... and sure won't be the last. He's proven in a number of big races and hope he comes back to form in the next one.

Here is my two cents.

1) There has only been a hand full of horses that went undefeated in their career. These great atheletes are not machines and they can run a bad race from time to time. One loss does not mean that a horse doesnt deserve to be considered extremely good. What irritated me yesterday was people saying that BB had to how a showing like that of Secretariate. I think that it crap. Since when isnt winning enough? I think BB will be champion three year old.

2) Two horses come to mind that cna sweep the Jim Dandy, Travers, and BCC and those two are Dennis of Cork and Harlem Rocker. This is assuming that Curlin does race in the BCC.

Denis of Cork? Really?

Why not? He isn't anything special but neither is anyone else at this point (assuming BB doesn't race again). He finished 3rd in the Derby and 2nd in the Belmont. Why not him? Heck, anyone can clunk up and become a star from this bunch of 3 year olds. He has a good of shot as any.

Clunk up is the right phrase to use. He's had three decent races in his career, in one he got a perfect setup, and in the other two he never was a threat to the winner. I know this is a terrible crop, but to say that Denis of Cork is a possibility to sweep the Travers and BCC is insane, IMO. There's probably a maiden winner three-year-old that has a better shot of winning one of those two races.

I hear what you are saying, but I would have to believe if the Travers was next month and DofC was in it with the same cast of characters, he would be the fav. Of course that doesn't mean he wins. One horse I have forgotten about is Colonel John. He has a shot at the BCC since it is at Santa Anita and he loves that surface.

Well, that's my point. I'm banking on it being a slightly better cast of characters. Even if it's not though, Denis doesn't strike me as a horse with enough stamina or tactical speed to win a race like the Travers or Classic.

You seem to be correct about his lack of stamina and/or tactical speed.

I wonder if Larry Jones will enter his other filly in the big races. That would be interesting.

Stamina is one issue he doesnt have in my opinion.

His biggest problem is that he is a plodder that gives the visual impression of being a closer because he is passing dying horses.

And no, he isnt going to win a travers or a jim dandy for that matter and it doesnt really matter how weak the cast is.

My guess at this point is that he never runs again.

My disclaimer is that I've not checked the particulars on his insurance policies.

Are you guys talking about the same horse? Dalakhani was talking about Denis of Cork.

Why blame BB. Kent lost the race

:rolleyes:

Iavarone talked about an old fashioned Jim Dandy-Travers run after the race Saturday. The Travers is a race they all really want to win.

He will not be running on the turf unless he wins a handful more of important Grade 1s on the dirt. At this point, running Big Brown on the turf will devalue, and marginalize, him even further.

At this point of the year, Tiznow had just won his first stakes race, a G3 at Hollywood Park. FuPeg had beaten some questionable sorts in the Derby and was upset by Red Bullet in the Preakness; he then sat out the Belmont, won by the poster boy for 'anybody who can stay sound can win a classic' Commendable.

don't forget georgie boy, if he comes back the same as he was before injury.

what happened to biker boy?

It seemed that the conditioning and lack of "bottom' put into this horse by not running in the fall, and not even going to the track in January, finally caught up to him. I still don't think he's anything close to a bum, or a fraud.
He ran well fresh in his allowance win and Fla. derby win, and again on 5 weeks rest in the KY derby.

The 3 triple crown races in 5 weeks would have taken it's toll on any 3-yo this year, with or without the sweltering heat at Belmont last Saturday.
BB was the only horse that did run in all 3 triple crown races, so I give the horse credit for trying. He was just out of gas.

Lots of other horses in that race had run just as often as Big Brown had, so I don't think the fact that he was the only competitor to run in all three Triple Crown races should be an excuse. Macho Again rain in the Derby Trial on April 26th, the Preakness, and the Belmont. Da' Tara ran the same schedule as Macho Again, but instead ran in the Barbaro on the Preakness undercard. Icabad Crane was on his third race in seven weeks as well.

There is...his name is Unbridled's Heart. ;)